$10 NLHE Full Ring: Going Fishin in Position..

ALL IN CLUBS

ALL IN CLUBS

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$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)

SB: $10
BB: $8.77 VPIP 52% PFR 0% AGG 6% HANDS 26 CBETSFLP 62%
UTG: $4.04
MP: $3.90
MP+1: $11.91
MP+2: $4
LP: $6.09 - Sitting Out
CO Hero: $10.44
BTN: $12.02
Pre-flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO and dealt :10c4: :8d4:
4 folds, Hero raises $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.20
Flop: ($0.65) :8s4: :js4: :5c4: (3 players)
BB checks,Hero bets $0.50, BB calls $0.50
Turn: ($1.65) :8s4: :js4: :5c4: :3d4: (3 players)
BB checks, Hero, So do we keep betting now and how much:questionm
 
bgomez89

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what is his fold to flop cbet
 
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orangepeeleo

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FOLD TO FLOP CBET 20% fOLD TO TURN BET 0% WENT TO SHOWDOWN 62%

With stats like that should you not either be:

a)Opening more for value in LP as this guy is just gonna make hands like Suited gappers, Axs hands harder to play?

or

b)Move table to a spot where you can easily steal all day vs nits?

EDIT: Every time I look at this I think of something different, I mean, hes calling with loads of crap thats drawing to all sorts of draws, 9T, any fd, probs hands like QT 9K, i dunno if this makes it an easy choice to double barrel and maybe check back a scare card river,hmmmm
 
bgomez89

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this guy isnt folding if we double barrel so just check behind and hopefully you can hit something on the river or get a cheap showdown
 
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orangepeeleo

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this guy isnt folding if we double barrel so just check behind and hopefully you can hit something on the river or get a cheap showdown

Has this guy not got enough Flush/Straight draws in his flop calling range to go for more value on the turn? We'll get the chance to check back loads of rivers cuz if he hits he bets or c/r's (which we wont give him the chance to do as we will have SD value)
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Has this guy not got enough Flush/Straight draws in his flop calling range to go for more value on the turn? We'll get the chance to check back loads of rivers cuz if he hits he bets or c/r's (which we wont give him the chance to do as we will have SD value)

I'd also check behind, don't think 2nd pair crap kicker is enough to value bet here with only 5 outs to improve our hand, some of which may be counterfeited too.

I mean if you know he calls his stack with Q5o there sure go for it, but there are more Jx and 8x / 2 pairs in his range than draws. On the flop you're not betting for value either, you're betting to pick up the dead money, while charging draws, but on the turn you know he has "something" usually, and most of that something probably beats you
 
bgomez89

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Has this guy not got enough Flush/Straight draws in his flop calling range to go for more value on the turn? We'll get the chance to check back loads of rivers cuz if he hits he bets or c/r's (which we wont give him the chance to do as we will have SD value)
I don't want to build a pot with just second pair and a weak kicker
 
No Brainer

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we only have 25 hands on villain so post flop stats may be horribly skewed. He is a fish that wont fold. Tighten up your range a bit so we can bet post flop for value when we hit.

Check it back, hope the river is not too scary and call a bet on the river if he makes one, otherwise I would check the river back as well.

If we are going to play this wide of a range against loose players that don't like folding post flop we should remember that we really only want to be making small pots as we will often have very marginal hands...
 
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orangepeeleo

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Yeah the basic small hand small pot thing applys i guess, so its very marginal to -ev putting in another bet on the turn

But I'd just be surprised if the river bricks and he shows up with anything that beats us.
 
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baudib1

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Personally I'd keep betting here. His call-flop range is so freaking wide we're going to get value from a ton of draws and worse hands and random floats. We don't have to build this into stackoff territory but bet something like 90 cents and he'll keep calling with stuff like T9/76/spades/5x/gutshots/77 and random overcards. Fold to river aggression and check back the river always barring hitting trips, it's pretty unlikely he'll bluff and will probably check all of his Jx/8x that beats us; for that matter he may well check when he gets there.

Against a tighter, more aggressive player, who folds the flop more often and will raise his best draws, I'd definitely check the turn.

I think preflop is too loose from CO, I don't have a problem opening from button against this guy though.
 
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baudib1

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Here's an attempt at a stove, it's hard when player's range is this wide.
I think it's realistic to say he calls flop with any pair, all straight draws, gutshots and a few random overs/A-high hands.
So this may be thinnish but I think we're still ahead of his calling range.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.586% 54.66% 01.93% 203456 7178.50 { Tc8d }
Hand 1: 43.414% 41.49% 01.93% 154427 7178.50 { JJ-TT, 88-22, AJs-A8s, Ah7h, As7s, As6s, A5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, KsTs, Ks9s, K8s, K5s, Q8s+, J5s+, T7s+, 97s+, 9s6s, 82s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AJo-ATo, A8o, A5o, KJo+, K8o, K5o-K3o, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
 
WVHillbilly

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Bet the turn. Your ahead of his calling range and he's not going to turn any hand worse than yours into a bluff. I'd double pretty much any pair against this guy. If you don't bet the turn you're going to be left guessing on a lot of rivers if he bets. I bet turn, check back any river that doesn't improve my hand.

I really don't understand the check back mentality everyone ITT has on this one. He's almost never ahead here and he's almost always calling again. Why check?
 
Stu_Ungar

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Fold preflop.. why raise this hand from the Co?

Why raise this hand from the BTN against a villian who dosent fold?
 
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orangepeeleo

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Bet the turn. Your ahead of his calling range and he's not going to turn any hand worse than yours into a bluff. I'd double pretty much any pair against this guy. If you don't bet the turn you're going to be left guessing on a lot of rivers if he bets. I bet turn, check back any river that doesn't improve my hand.

I really don't understand the check back mentality everyone ITT has on this one. He's almost never ahead here and he's almost always calling again. Why check?

I can die a happy man, I posted something, people argued against it and WV says the same thing, my life is now complete :D
 
WVHillbilly

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I can die a happy man, I posted something, people argued against it and WV says the same thing, my life is now complete :D

I just don't understand the assertion that our hand is marginal here. We're miles ahead of his calling range. I do agree with Stu that this is the wrong type of hand to be raising with this villain in the BB but once we do we can't not get value with any pair.

Honestly I wanted to advocate for betting both the turn AND river but thought that might make too many head's assplode since we have to hope for some Ace high calls to make the river value bet.
 
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baudib1

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I really don't understand the check back mentality everyone ITT has on this one. He's almost never ahead here and he's almost always calling again. Why check?

nits ITT

thin value vs. fish/2nd pair is the nuts
 
No Brainer

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I don't think we are really all that far ahead of the calling range. I have given him a 50% range, left in all flush draws, straight draws including gutshots, any two overcards and all pairs, taken out sets and 2 pair hands in case he was to get frisky on us and we are 50% on the flop and 54% equity on this turn.

Board: J
85 3
Equity Win Tie
MP2 54.94% 53.63% 1.31% { Tc8d }
MP3 45.06% 43.74% 1.31% { TT-99, 77-66, 44, AJs+, A8s, A5s, KJs+, K8s, K5s, QTs+, Q8s, Q5s, J9s+, J7s-J6s, J4s, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, AJo+, A8o, A5o, KJo+, K8o, K5o, Q8o+, J9o+, J7o, T8o+, 98o, AsTs, KsTs, As9s, Ks9s, Qs9s, As7s, Ks7s, Qs7s, As6s, Ks6s, Qs6s, Ts6s, 9s6s, As4s, Ks4s, Qs4s, As3s, Ks3s, Qs3s, As2s, Ks2s, Qs2s }

I agree with posts above that we shouldn't be raising this pre flop but I also don't think we should be betting for value this thin against this guy. I am not advocating waiting for the nuts against a drooler just a better spot than this. If we were to get the same board but we were holding JTo we would be so far ahead that we could be betting three streets and knowing 100% that we are miles ahead of his range.

 
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