$10 NLHE Full Ring: Fishy flat of 4 bet???

This is Zoom, full ring, so I don't have a read on my opponents, and no prior history to the best of my knowledge against this specific opponent.

So I was mulling this one over. I think it's fine to 3-bet my Queens here in position because I probably don't get as much respect for a 3-bet on the button in some instances. I won't always 3-bet, but in this case, UTG+2 makes a big 4 bet. Now, at this stange, I'm putting villain on a very narrow range of hands, AA, KK, AK. I don't think too many will 4-bet anything worse than that the majority of the time. I decide to flat.

As you'll see on the flop, I flop a set. Without getting into the outcome, because it's really irrelevant here, is:

Flatting a 4-bet in position a good play? In other words, is there ANY reason to think I should fold this hand? Keep in mind, I'm severely polarizing villain's range to 3 specific hands.

So I'm set mining feeling fairly certain that I am almost always behind here. Putting it that way, I'm not convinced I'm making a good play here.

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): $9.85
SB: $10.00
BB: $20.48
UTG: $9.84
UTG+1: $14.33
UTG+2: $11.81
MP1: $9.87
MP2: $11.26
CO: $10.28

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with Qs Qh
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $4.50, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($9.15) Qc 7c 4d (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $7.31 all in, Hero calls $5.35 all in

Turn: ($19.85) Ks (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($19.85) 9d (2 players - 2 are all in)

Thoughts???

I personally would have preferred to 5 bet shove rather than flatting pre. What if the flop has an or a or both ?? The villain would most times shove the flop regardless so i rather play this fast.

Stacks need to be further deep enough to consider a flat with queens pre flop not when by calling a 4bet we commit half our stack. Better to get the other half in too, no ??

suby_rafael said:

I personally would have preferred to 5 bet shove rather than flatting pre. What if the flop has an or a or both ?? The villain would most times shove the flop regardless so i rather play this fast.

Stacks need to be further deep enough to consider a flat with queens pre flop not when by calling a 4bet we commit half our stack. Better to get the other half in too, no ??

Click to expand...

This. Why call preflop when the stacks are going in on the flop anyway? At 6-max i might consider shoving pre. But this is FR and he 4-bet hard from UTG+2 and you put him on a narrow range like KK,AA,AK considering he is not a maniac. You are waaay behind his range and calling the 4-bet ~45 BB to setmine it is just -EV . I belive you need like 500BB stacks to setmine here.
Fold preflop IMO because on the long run you will loose lot of money with this moove. Still agree with suby_raphael that shoving pre is better than calling, but the best opt IMO is to fold preflop.

Thanks for the feedback. So far, it looks like the options of shoving and folding have been posed vs. flatting. Before I give away the outcome, I want to give it some more time for others to weigh in if they so choose.

I will fold preflop... The 4bet size is really to large to call

Hi. Personally I agree with your flat call. Then only if you are set mining and do not hit your set you will have to fold after the flop, to any bet and not waste any money after this and move on. This to me is the optimal play.

I can also understand a 5 bet all-in move, but as you say he has 4 bet and if he is not holding what you suspect, AA KK or AK he is fishing not you or perhaps he is on tilt?.

What happened anyway - Just interested to know?

This is zoom. Your QQ is way behind the 4 bet from the villain. Fold pre flop.

Shove on the flop. You cannot get away on this hand. You are way too ahead or too behind on the the turn. Villain has AA or KK.

fold preflop, im not convinced 3betting pre is best tho

The 3bet pre is standard. You are ahead of alot of hes range (AJ-AQ, KJ-KQ, 99-JJ) Now when you get 4Bet that big you need to choose. Either go All-in now or fold. If you think you are behind 100% of the time and you will fold to a Flop C-bet, than you should absolutly not call.

To set-mine and fold to any C-bet you need to have ATLEAST 10xCall left in your stack. Becuse you will only hit the set 1/10 of the time. When you called the raise you had to call $3.5 and your potential win was $11 (pot + what whas left in hes stack) So I think its valied to call this if you had $40 behind.

Now I would personely shove QQ here. I am a 6-max player but I guess hes range is something like KK+ AK? if that ths case than we got 40% equity.

(win) x (equity) - (risk) x (vil equity) = ($11) x (0.4) - ($9) x (0.6) = -$1

Now I didnt take into the equation that he might fold AK to a 5Bet once in a while or that he might be bluff 4Beting here (witch I dont think he is).

So IMO shoving or folding here is fine, but calling with the intention of folding if not hitting the 2 outer is bad.

Good luck!

I'd have flatted the first raise, especially given that I'm in position. I might 3-bet as well, but then I'd have folded to the 4-bet because at this point because it looks like the hand he has, especially if you know you'll have trouble folding overpairs on low flops. You can in fact put him on as narrow a range as 2 specific hands and he's put a 3rd of his stack in there preflop, making set-mining very expensive. Would you call with JJ or 1010 here?

This also being Full Ring, I think it's a fishy play.

You aren't getting nearly the right odds to set mine. Set mining is when you call a SMALL amount preflop with a chance of winning a big pot if you hit. If you are calling of half your stack just to "set mine" then this ruins the purpose of setmining, and you are effectively treating QQ like it's 22. You will only hit your set less than 1 in 8 times (7/8 times you have to fold on flop) and you have to call 3.50 to expect to win 10.50 (pot plus your opponent's remaining stack). You're getting implied odds of around 3:1 on a call but less than 8:1 chance of winning so it's easy to see that calling is significantly -EV. I'd just fold pre if i thought my opponent had a very tight range.

3bets fine, fold to 4bet. Had he of made the 4bet smaller there is an argument for calling.

I would call and not 3-bet. If no aces or kings come get it all in post flop

The 4 bet sizing isn't indicative of a player who understands 4 betting. For me its fishy and polarising to garbage or AA or KK.
I would not be surprised to see the villain with 44 or similar.
The issue is to call or 5 bet. I 5 bet shove on the basis he is trying to get me to fold rather than extracting value with a sensible 4 bet sizing.
Calling 4 bets against an unknown with QQ can't be good in the long run. You will be up against AK and JJ enough to make a 5bet shove +ev.