$10 NLHE Full Ring: Ever folding KK?

$10 NL HE Full Ring: Ever folding KK?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 13/9/1.2

I know it's only 10nl, but considering the villains stats, opening UTG, then 4-betting, can we ever fold KK here? Could use some thoughts other than, "It's 10nl, you have kings, get it in."


Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP1: $10.46 (104.6 bb)
MP2: $6.97 (69.7 bb)
MP3: $16.55 (165.5 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $10.32 (103.2 bb)
Hero (SB): $10.05 (100.5 bb)
BB: $20.93 (209.3 bb)
UTG+2: $10.35 (103.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with K K
UTG+2 raises to $0.35, 5 folds, Hero raises to $1.15, BB folds, UTG+2 raises to $2.90,

I would either push it in but since you seem like you don't want to do that then just call and see if an ace comes up. If it doesn't, get you're chips in.

I'd probably push it & see what others are doing the next round...remembering that KK can fall to AA! If another K came up, I'd play it all!

how many hands are the stats over. I would say that you certainly have to call at least. His 3 betting range certainly contains QQ's and AK, maybe even AQ. The main question is whether to ship it preflop or not. I call. His aggression in low so he isn't likely to bluff if an Ace falls and he doesn't have it so you can reasonably fold if he does bet putting him on a big Ace, AK or AQ.

I just think shoving folds the hands we beat and allows him to play us perfectly in this spot.

Woooow you give your opponent too much credit for a hand in my opinion.. I would rerais all in defenitely

I can't say that I've ever folded KK preflop. The one time that I was almost certain the preflop shove was AA I still called because he had a 60 bb stack and there was extra dead money in the pot from other players who had called my raise, and then I sucked out hitting a set of Ks.

Not getting it in preflop with KK when there's opportunity makes life more difficult. I'd opt for simple.

just get your money in pf.I never consider foldin KK HU preflop.

I probably wouldn't 3-bet there unless he calls a lot of 3-bets.

i dont like the idea of smooth calling and folding on an Ace high flop because it allows him to take the pot from u if he has QQ which is easily in his 3betting range. HU, im shipping my stack in pre and if he is dead to an ace and hits the god bless him. u'll beat this guy 2/3 times in this scenario. If he has AA, then shit happens, next time u'll have the aces and ur opponent will have the Kings.

How many hands?
3bet stat?
Fold to 3bet?

Before we make a decision as big as folding KK we need plenty of stats to back the decision up.

When people say "You should never fold KK for 100BB's" I think this should only apply to 6max.
The dynamic and the early position ranges in FR are factors we simply can't ignore.

If we don't have adequate stats on this guy to prove he wouldn't 3bet AK here we get it in.

trewtrew said:

i dont like the idea of smooth calling and folding on an Ace high flop because it allows him to take the pot from u if he has QQ which is easily in his 3betting range. HU, im shipping my stack in pre and if he is dead to an ace and hits the god bless him. u'll beat this guy 2/3 times in this scenario. If he has AA, then shit happens, next time u'll have the aces and ur opponent will have the Kings.

Click to expand...

If we call preflop we are definitely not calling with the intent to fold to a cbet on an A-high flop. I'm not saying we should flat because we're scared of losing I'm saying we should flat to keep the hands we're crushing in the hand. We don't want a hand like KQ folding preflop.

Insta ship it...

There is only one hand in poker that could be beating you right now... sure he may have it, but there are going to be many more times this situation occurs where he doesn't have it.

I could see him doing this with QQ, JJ, even TT if he's trying to get the hand done pre flop! Heck if you only have a small range of hands on him, he could have 22 and just aggressively plays all pocket pairs?

Then theres AK, AQ, and then once again depending on his stats after x amount of hands KQ suited etc...

Insta shove.. Forget the fact its $10NL, it's the fact that you have 5 times his 4 bet... Any raise is an all in, and though a call isn't awful play seeing as your in position, you'd want him to call pre flop with all the above hands.

Just my 2 cents

You can't flat call and give him the chance to catch something.

You can't fold either, they're pocket Kings. Negreanu said he's laid down KK preflop one time because he said he picked up a read that his opponents got the bullets. He said he mucked his kings face up just to be surprised that his opponent face up mucked QQ.

Its either shove or fold (if you genuinely believe he's got the aces).

I'm shoving at this point though, a flat call is downright out of the question for me since a mere A on the flop is going to run you off if he comes in with a c-bet on the flop.

Just my .02. Don't take my word for it.

Shove it. He could have AKs, QQ and at worst AA. Those are the only hands he has so IMO you have 66% +ev in shoving because you dominate 2 of the 3 hands that he could have. If he has the aces then so be it...But every 2 out of 3 times he wont. tc

zachvac said:

If we call preflop we are definitely not calling with the intent to fold to a cbet on an A-high flop. I'm not saying we should flat because we're scared of losing I'm saying we should flat to keep the hands we're crushing in the hand. We don't want a hand like KQ folding preflop.

Click to expand...

At 10NL people often play fit or fold after the flop.

So on the one hand you keep KQ in the hand which is good.

On the other you keep AK/AQ in the hand, which is bad postflop if the A hits.

Postflop, unless the villain hits the flop he will not continue.. they just don't!!

So with 2 Kings accounted for, do we want to call to keep in KQ with the hopes that a K appears (maybe a queen) on the flop or would we be better shoving to get AK to play for his stack?

Personaly I think for most 10NL players AK is more likey to be 4 bet than KQ. There really isnt a 4-betting game at this level.

i kinda hate shoving in this situation cause the majority of villains shove calling range is AA and we miss a lot of value from weaker hands

Stu_Ungar said:

At 10NL people often play fit or fold after the flop.

So on the one hand you keep KQ in the hand which is good.

On the other you keep AK/AQ in the hand, which is bad postflop if the A hits.

Postflop, unless the villain hits the flop he will not continue.. they just don't!!

So with 2 Kings accounted for, do we want to call to keep in KQ with the hopes that a K appears (maybe a queen) on the flop or would we be better shoving to get AK to play for his stack?

Personaly I think for most 10NL players AK is more likey to be 4 bet than KQ. There really isnt a 4-betting game at this level.

Click to expand...

I didn't mean flatting the 4-bet I meant flatting the initial raise (ie not 3-betting). And I'm happy with AQ coming in because that means we don't lose much when they spike their A and if the Q hits we can make a good amount while we still win the hand every other time.

zachvac said:

I didn't mean flatting the 4-bet I meant flatting the initial raise (ie not 3-betting). And I'm happy with AQ coming in because that means we don't lose much when they spike their A and if the Q hits we can make a good amount while we still win the hand every other time.

Click to expand...

Im with you now.

I thought you were talking about flatting the 4 bet rather than the opening raise.

The only hand here that will have u is AA, so you need to think about your opponents range and the probability that he is holdn AA. Personally if he your opponent is playing back into you I would push.

Well if you want to crunch numbers then this is a coinflip, imo. I doubt he's playiing AK and AQ this way so his range is most likely QQ+. Against that range KK is 50%. Personally I get it all in.

And if you lose a buyin with the second strongest starting hand in holdem big deal. It wasn't a stupid move and as long as stupid moves are not in your arsenal you'll get that buyin back plus more later.