$10 NLHE Full Ring: Bottom set on a 3way flop in a 3bet pot, 200bb deep

LD1977

LD1977

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SB ($11.18)
BB ($15.71)
UTG ($10.47)
Hero (UTG+1) ($21.54)
MP1 ($15.66)
MP2 ($7.53)
MP3 ($10)
CO ($9.15)
Button ($17.97)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 2
diamond.gif
, 2
heart.gif

UTG raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 3 folds, CO raises to $0.90, Button calls $0.90, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($3.05) 6
spade.gif
, 2
club.gif
, A
spade.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.60, Button calls $1.60, Hero ?

CO is 17 / 8 / 3.5 over 234 hands, no reads/notes.

BTN is 14 / 8 / 2.8 over 6.2k hands. I consider him exceptionally bad but he has a positive win rate since his erratic play sometimes gets rewarded. He is basically a fish post flop even though he plays tight preflop.

Notes:
- Raise 76s from UTG+1 but limps KQs from UTG.
- Flush draw plays aggressively on the flop as PFR against a raise and a call (cbets and after a raise and a call shoves baby FD).
- Minraise SB vs BB with JJ and fires 2 barrels on Q high board.
- Limps 92s in BTN (3 limpers in pot already).
- Does not consider ranges at all while playing.
- Cbets close to pot and folds to a min chkraise.
- Calls a raise with AKo and if he flops TPTK he thinks he is the best regardless of the board or action.

Anyway I know the notes don't reveal much but I stopped taking them since there is no point really, there is not enough space for everything he does.

1. What do I do on the flop? I will later reveal what happened in the hand, just wondering what should I put them both on here and how do I proceed.
 
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LD1977

LD1977

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1. What if I get reraised? Shove?
2. What if I don't get reraised but the turn completes the flush draw? I can imagine BTN having KQs or any other SC here because why not. He is IP vs the PFR so he can call here since he is getting a great price.
 
WVHillbilly

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If you get reraised it'll be a shove anyway so call.

No one is getting the right price on a FD if you make it $5. And if you make it $5 on the flop you're not folding to ANY turn card.
 
LD1977

LD1977

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So if a spade falls on the turn I do what? Bet and call a shove?

I find this very tricky since I am OOP vs 2 players, although it can be safely argued CO doesn't have a SC and with AA he would shove flop vs my raise.
 
Abedin120

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If you make re-raise they will know that you have three of a kind. So, I think you should only call and wait to see the turn, and after that if they raise than you can make re-raise.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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So if a spade falls on the turn I do what? Bet and call a shove?

I find this very tricky since I am OOP vs 2 players, although it can be safely argued CO doesn't have a SC and with AA he would shove flop vs my raise.
The turn card is irrelevant if you make it $5 on the flop, you shove any turn.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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set on flop=shove always. no questions asked on this board. if someone has a higher set (aces),such is life. Your never trying to do anything else here but get it in.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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even if that was a monotone flop versus 2 villains ,ur still trying to get it in.so,when we setmine and we hit our set, we are looking to get as much money as we can in the middle on the flop.
 
donkysnake

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i would raise big, probably 4.50$ or 5.50$, someone might have AK and def will push cauz of the flush draw possibility on board, so def big raise is the best play
 
LD1977

LD1977

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What if I just shove flop as vinyl says? Not much difference since even a 5$ check raise looks strong, pure shove might look like a FD.
 
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RaisingYa

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If you make re-raise they will know that you have three of a kind. So, I think you should only call and wait to see the turn, and after that if they raise than you can make re-raise.

I would say at a higher level you can make this assumption but at the $10NL level many people have no clue and don't really make assumptions about what hand you may have.

I would re-raise to $4 or $5 dollars. Most likely you are dealing with a A that is paired or a flush or straight draw. You should make them pay for the hand. If they re-raise I would put all the chips in. The turn is hard to make a decision on because we would need to see the action as well as the card on the turn.

Interested to see what the result was.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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I would say at a higher level you can make this assumption but at the $10NL level many people have no clue and don't really make assumptions about what hand you may have.

I would re-raise to $4 or $5 dollars. Most likely you are dealing with a A that is paired or a flush or straight draw. You should make them pay for the hand. If they re-raise I would put all the chips in. The turn is hard to make a decision on because we would need to see the action as well as the card on the turn.

Interested to see what the result was.



^^^ so am i, but whatever it is,we must always try to get alot of money in the pot when we flop a set. So the outcome of this hand has little to no value..

Im guessing one had AK and the other was on a flush draw with a lone ace? OR did u hit the top of their range and fall into set versus set LD?
 
LD1977

LD1977

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I shoved and naturally the retard in BTN had AA (since playing it 3-way is so damn cool), why else would I post it here. BTW he most likely calls the shove even with only AA but whatever.

I am seriously considering quitting playing small pocket pairs altogether since I am getting utterly destroyed when I flop or turn a set.

I got stacked 10 times with these small sets (22-77) vs better sets in 36k hands and this is:
1) seriously pissing me off
2) killing my bankroll (-102$ altogether, yes I lost 10 buyins with sets), if I didn't get those sets I would be in a very nice profit

Either I am running badly beyond belief (even worse than legendary 5NL badrun which lasted 100k hands before reversing itself) or these hands are just garbage.

Now, I did win some big pots with sets but that is like 50-50 proposition ('cause it is normal to lose 50% of big pots when having a set).

There are a lot of pots where I basically win a small pot on the flop/turn (I don't need sets for that) and I lose a shitload of pots where I don't get a set and give up, netting me a massive aggregate loss. I mitigate somewhat by floating IP with pocket pairs and taking quite a few pots on the turn but it is a drop in the bucket.
 
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RaisingYa

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I would say that PP are the most profitable part of the cash game, especially when in the lower levels where players cannot get away from top pair or draws. I think in this case you were not forturnate and got suck against an over set. Sometimes this happens and you have to just shake it off. I wouldn't consider not playing the small sets. I think to be more even you should include the number of buyins you have won with the small sets. I think it would be more than you have lost.
 
LD1977

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Yes, I am in profit when I flop a set but this is only due to cbets and floats, both of which I do with air or low equity hands regularly (this is due to steals or calls in position with speculative hands that whiff but PFR also whiffs and gives up after the cbet). This is just masking the issue and that is that I find set mining a losing proposition solely due to consistently running into bigger sets.

I am not counting running into straights/flushes since that usually doesn't cost me as much since I look out for those and obviously I don't expect to win every hand when I flop the set.

The problem is that I am paying quite a bit of money for set mining and winning big pots (which is what sets are for) should compensate for when I can't float since I am in position or the PFR barrels and I fold turn (regardless of this I am sure floats are +EV overall). I can't win only around 50% of those and turn a profit.

Here are the totals from playing pairs:
22: net -32$ (run my sets into sets of Tens, sixes, Aces). "Outperforms" the 33 mostly due to the massive loss from the hand in the opening post, otherwise they are both equally garbage.
33: net -22$ (Tens, Aces)
44: net -12$ (Kings, Queens)
55: net -5$ (no sets)
66: net +3$ (Queens)
77: net +7$ (no sets)
88: net +11$ (no sets)
99: net -17$ (Aces)

Exactly zero times sets with those hands managed to run into an underset.

I recall that I folded a few times when I was pretty much 100% sure I am looking at a higher set (super passive guy raises flop AI with a huge overbet), otherwise it would be much worse.

You might note that all these hands would perform well if I just treated them like air unless I flop quads or am against a known maniac who shoves with bottom pair and such.
 
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LD1977

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P.S. Silly me, I overlooked a hand where I run 44 set into a set of 8s on the flop and sucked out with quads :D that is actually skewing the results somewhat into my favor (ofc I do expect to suck out once every 20 times).
 
vinylspiros

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LD, I can see why you are frustrated but it's hard to believe you are not making money with sets. I dont know how to filter the holdem manager to show me exact net losses with sets but im going to look into it right now to see what my net wins/losses are with sets.

Generally though ,i have never thought that small sets are in danger of being beat by higher sets because it happens so rarely. I will look into it though as im not 100% sure.

You might be on some kind of set badbeat streak.Because what you are basically implying is that small sets are not worth chasing(on the flop at least) and this is in contradiction to what we all know and how we usually play the game with small pocket pairs.
 
LD1977

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Well yeah, I have followed the forum mantra about that and am getting utterly annihilated (3bb/100 in losses is no joke).

As an added bonus, pretty much 100% of my tilt and spewing is exclusively due to this and if I just didn't play those hands as anything other than ATC for steals I would be in a massive profit.
 
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play it slow by check calling an ace hit one of the 2 if not both and there is nothing to worry about, raise the riverso you can extract more money. if u r against a higher set its just a cooler u cant do much about it but keep in mind that u hit what u were looking for preflop so next step is to get max value.
 
vinylspiros

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A5pfTB4ElA

I think this should have been a fold. You don't see Phil Ivey make a lot of mistakes, but I think even I would have found the fold button here at the main event.



folding sets is wrong. set over set is the exception and not the rule meaning that it happens less times than it does. . folding a set in fear of losing to an overset makes etmining look crazy.
 
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sometimes it's best not to over analyze 1 particular hand....opps are going to make bad calls.if you've been playing well odds say your have the chips to absorb a one pot lose.
 
LD1977

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He got tricked with that call, thought he was up against an Ace and a flush draw.
 
donkysnake

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If you make re-raise they will know that you have three of a kind. So, I think you should only call and wait to see the turn, and after that if they raise than you can make re-raise.

lol with this kind of flop, the opponent will barely think hes against a set
 
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