€10 NLHE Full Ring: AQo doesn't hit flop

Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($4.67)
MP2 ($10)
CO ($12.89)
Cafeman31 (Button) ($9.45)
SB ($1.70)
BB ($10)
UTG ($10.54)
UTG+1 ($9.57)

Preflop: Cafeman31 is Button with Q
club.gif
, A
spade.gif

4 folds, CO bets $0.20, Cafeman31 raises $0.40, 2 folds, CO calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.95) 5
heart.gif
, 4
spade.gif
, 5
diamond.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $0.20, Cafeman31 calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.35) 10
diamond.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $0.30, Cafeman31 folds

Total pot: $1.35

No reads and no HH to speak of on CO.

Yet another hand in my history where I'm at a loss as to what to do. CO looks like he might be stealing, and I've got a hand, so I raise IP (maybe I didn't raise enough given the possibility of him ATS) and he calls. Nothing on the flop and he makes a small bet to which I simple call... maybe I should at this point be looking to reraise heavyish? By the turn I've had enough and get my coat...
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
Minraise from the cutoff looks like a steal, then you reraise small and he calls. When he bets 1/5 of the pot on the flop you should raise it to around 70-90c and take it down there, but if he raises you can be sure you're beat. As played on the turn he is still betting tiny you should at least call but I like a raise again. He could have something like KJ, 67 JQ which have all missed but also something which missed the flop and hit the turn like KT,QT,JT, i like to reraise the turn as we gain no information just calling these tiny bets
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
Err his PFR doesn't 'look like a steal', we have no info on villain we don't know if he's into stealing and all that jazz. Just call the raise pf, no need to 3-bet without knowing you're ahead of his calling range. If you do 3-bet make it 3-3.5x his bet.

As played it's ridiculous that you fold to his micro bets, just call him down. Raising is bad because he doesn't call you with stuff you beat, and you don't need to bluff when you have showdown value and are getting really great odds
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
Thanks for your input. Seems like one of my problems is when I should be raising/reraising I rarely put enough in. I need to look into that.

As played it's ridiculous that you fold to his micro bets, just call him down. Raising is bad because he doesn't call you with stuff you beat, and you don't need to bluff when you have showdown value and are getting really great odds
I want to start by saying that I am new to analyzing hands rather than just playing by 'feel' (whatever that means). But the way I see it, if I need to improve my hand to win at showdown (a reasonable assumption?) then I have 6 outs, or 13%. If I call his 30 on the turn that's around 18%.

So calling the turn bet to get the 'really great odds' and 'showdown value' you talk about must be some complex combination of getting one of my outs + already being ahead + implied odds + something else that I haven't thought of?
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
Err his PFR doesn't 'look like a steal', we have no info on villain we don't know if he's into stealing and all that jazz. Just call the raise pf, no need to 3-bet without knowing you're ahead of his calling range. If you do 3-bet make it 3-3.5x his bet.

As played it's ridiculous that you fold to his micro bets, just call him down. Raising is bad because he doesn't call you with stuff you beat, and you don't need to bluff when you have showdown value and are getting really great odds
Cutoff is a typical blind stealing position and a min bet does not scream strenght, so yeah i would be putting him a steal with SC's, Ace or king rag Q8/Q9 type of crap and small pairs. This is why I think a 3-bet is correct, but in this case it's too small. With the tiny bets I've seen it done with bottom pair or an underpair to the board like 22/33 so a raise on the turn should see him fold these types of hands. We don't want to call minbets to showdown with ace high and see him show A4/22 when we could get him to fold these by raising the turn
 
brank

brank

Back in!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2009
Total posts
1,354
Chips
0
Cutoff is a typical blind stealing position and a min bet does not scream strenght,

Really we cant say for sure because we have no hands on the guys so we dont know how he plays.

so yeah i would be putting him a steal with SC's, Ace or king rag Q8/Q9 type of crap and small pairs. This is why I think a 3-bet is correct,

Unless we're sure that they will continue with this whole range this is more of an argument for flat calling.

but in this case it's too small.

Yes. at least 3x would be good.

....
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
Thanks for that brank, I think at 10NL against a CO raise, 3-betting AQ is a good move, it's not often 10NL opponents will raise and fold to a min 3-bet, so will continue with whatever they raised with just to see a flop, which is why i think the preflop play and flop and turn bets by villain make out his hand to be so weak
 
bgomez89

bgomez89

Resident Thugmaster
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Total posts
3,127
Chips
0
Stop min raising please
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Stop min raising please
Werd. Raise to 70c pre at least, I probably raise the flop as well, since I think villain probably folds a lot of 22/66/AK type stuff, not to mention hands like JT that have good equity against us.
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
Thanks for your comments, really helpful.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
Werd. Raise to 70c pre at least, I probably raise the flop as well, since I think villain probably folds a lot of 22/66/AK type stuff, not to mention hands like JT that have good equity against us.
+1 agreed
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
Thanks for your input. Seems like one of my problems is when I should be raising/reraising I rarely put enough in. I need to look into that.

I want to start by saying that I am new to analyzing hands rather than just playing by 'feel' (whatever that means). But the way I see it, if I need to improve my hand to win at showdown (a reasonable assumption?) then I have 6 outs, or 13%. If I call his 30 on the turn that's around 18%.

So calling the turn bet to get the 'really great odds' and 'showdown value' you talk about must be some complex combination of getting one of my outs + already being ahead + implied odds + something else that I haven't thought of?

You're actually overanalysing things. The reality is you are likely ahead of him already on the turn so you may not even "need" your outs. They are however more than enough when you're behind. Raising flop is good as c9 pointed out, I was talking about the turn tho.

Cutoff is a typical blind stealing position and a min bet does not scream strenght, so yeah i would be putting him a steal with SC's, Ace or king rag Q8/Q9 type of crap and small pairs. This is why I think a 3-bet is correct, but in this case it's too small. With the tiny bets I've seen it done with bottom pair or an underpair to the board like 22/33 so a raise on the turn should see him fold these types of hands. We don't want to call minbets to showdown with ace high and see him show A4/22 when we could get him to fold these by raising the turn

So if a CO is raising any two but only calls/raises 3bets with AA, do you still think it's a good idea to 3-bet him?
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
Obviously not but where the hell did this idea come from?
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
Obviously not but where the hell did this idea come from?

From you, stating 3-betting vs a CO raise is a good move. His raising range (which is unknown in this hand anyway) is not that relevant when you 3-bet, his call 3bets range and his 4-bet range is.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
So if a CO is raising any two but only calls/raises 3bets with AA, do you still think it's a good idea to 3-bet him?
Hell yes, then we know exactly how to play against him!

:p

And most players at this stake level call too much, and 3-betting exploits that. His range is wide, and it'll still most likely be plenty wide after he calls.
 
LuckyChippy

LuckyChippy

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Total posts
4,987
Chips
0
Hell yes, then we know exactly how to play against him!

:p

And most players at this stake level call too much, and 3-betting exploits that. His range is wide, and it'll still most likely be plenty wide after he calls.

+1mirrion.
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
Hell yes, then we know exactly how to play against him!

:p

And most players at this stake level call too much, and 3-betting exploits that. His range is wide, and it'll still most likely be plenty wide after he calls.

But this guy is an unknown. There are plenty of nits at 10nl too, granted not usually min-raising but still...we have no idea how wide this guy would call 3-bets. I for one want to have an idea first with AQo
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
Easy 3bet for value.

The ratio of fish:nits for 10nl unknowns is going to be huge, especially if you play with any regularity, as you will have been more likely to play with the nits (who are usually multitablers) and have a read on them. +1 to the minraise being a huge indicator of him being a fish too.

Unknown = fish, or at least high likelihood of being a fish.
 
Top