$10 NLHE Full Ring: Ace Magnets... and why position is so key.

$10 NL HE Full Ring: Ace Magnets... and why position is so key.

$10nl FR Rush Poker - Saturday

Dealt to Hero [ Kd Kc ] in SB

Folds
CO raises [$0.35 USD]
Button folds
Hero raises [$1.10 USD]
BB folds
CO calls [$0.80 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 6c, As ]

Hero bets [$1.40 USD]

CO raises [$3.18 USD]

I go into the tank and "KK ???" appears in the chat, lol!

...

No reads on villian. I figure a fairly wide range to flat the 3bet in position including most aces, pocket pairs, sometimes random KJ, KQ, J10 type hands. QQ+ and sometimes AK may 4bet a plausible re-steal coming from the SB.

Note a lesson learned: I (probably) gave away my hand by thinking for a few seconds before throwing out the continuation bet. If I was raising preflop with a big Ace, the cbet there is a no brainer and probably folds out anything but sets, A10+, A6 or A2.

So... safe fold? Would a check-raise - to rep a big ace going for value - be a better play in this situation?

Thanks.

Hero checks flop because of the wa/wb situation

Hero folds to raise because they beat stone cold bluffs

C-betting this flop is okay OOP, but we gotta shut down when we're raised. Alternatively, you can also check/fold here if villain is passive. But I'm not happy taking a check/call route on this flop OOP.

really c9? at 10nl readless?

WA/WB sucks OOP (i.e. check-calling line).

You're trying to get to showdown cheap and to induce bluffs from hands that you beat. Do you really want to bluff catch for 3 streets OOP?
There's just too much room for your opponent to get a lot of money in when he's ahead and to shut down when he's not and knowing that makes you very bluffable.

Bet/folding is better, imo. Continuing to bet later streets depending on how draw heavy and float happy your opponent is.
On this flop, I'd just check-fold the turn if he doesn't have a really low fold to cbet.

meh, readless, I dislike bet/folding, because its firstly tought to get action from hands we beat without knowing villain is a drooler, especially on a board like that where they will only have a pocket pair as a pair pretty much. Hand like qj obv arent going to call. But its also going to suck on the turn when we are called, what then?

switch0723 said:

But its also going to suck on the turn when we are called, what then?

Click to expand...

thepokerkid123 said:

Bet/folding is better, imo. Continuing to bet later streets depending on how draw heavy and float happy your opponent is.

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Betting the flop turns KK into a bluff, but if it's a choice between a bluff or a bluff catcher, OOP I'd rather be bluffing.
Also, against anyone who's ever heard of WA/WB when the PFR check-calls an A high flop, your cards are face up.

Of course, check-calling will induce value bets from weaker hands but you wont be getting much value very often.

Remember that this is 10nl and we have no reads or stats whatsoever.

If we are 'bluffing' as you say, then the only hands that are folding are ones that we beat, and the ones calling pretty much all have us beat

In a 3 bet pot this is a jam when he raises. Why would he raise here with a solid A? (assuming 100 bb stacks), if he's any good he's calling turning his hand into a bluff catcher.

If I was bluffing prefop when i 3 bet id be bluffing at this A high dry flop 99% of the time and jamming to any raise. The fact you have a decent hand to showdown makes the move even more perfect.

based on other responses, clearly 10nl has got a lot more sophisticated since I was there

switch0723 said:

If we are 'bluffing' as you say, then the only hands that are folding are ones that we beat

Click to expand...

Sure, this may be a downside to c-betting. However, extracting value from the bottom of his range, and not getting value-towned by the part that beats us is going to be damn near impossible OOP. And if you want to extract value from 99 or 67, the best way to do it is by betting the flop.

If we c-bet, its profitable if villain folds around 40% of the time, and we can almost always accomplish that. Its a line I know is profitable, and its pretty much my default line here readless. This is similar to Clarkmeister theorem (where we bet all hands on a flush board, even though we might not get called by worse, because we know the bluff is profitable because it folds out X% of his range). The bottom line is that when your fold equity is high (and in this case it is), just bet unless you've got a much better line that's much higher in EV.

I think re-jamming over his min-raise is.... optimistic at best.

meh, im clearly a massive nit then, since i most likely c/f unless its a small bet.

Although I am a hudgely passive player, so c/f is generally my norm without reads

KardKlub said:

In a 3 bet pot this is a jam when he raises. Why would he raise here with a solid A? (assuming 100 bb stacks), if he's any good he's calling turning his hand into a bluff catcher.

If I was bluffing prefop when i 3 bet id be bluffing at this A high dry flop 99% of the time and jamming to any raise. The fact you have a decent hand to showdown makes the move even more perfect.

Click to expand...

How do we have a "decent hand to showdown" if we jam and he calls? What we have is 2 likely outs.

I think bet/folding readless is fine. If he's really passive and he only bets with his Ax hands, check/folding is the obvious choice.

Readless, this is a pretty standard bet/fold and basically just give up if called. As C9 said, it is a +EV play, and there really isn't an alternate line that is more +EV so we go with what we know will work.

KardKlub said:

In a 3 bet pot this is a jam when he raises. Why would he raise here with a solid A? (assuming 100 bb stacks), if he's any good he's calling turning his hand into a bluff catcher.

If I was bluffing prefop when i 3 bet id be bluffing at this A high dry flop 99% of the time and jamming to any raise. The fact you have a decent hand to showdown makes the move even more perfect.

Click to expand...

This is a great thought... why would he raise with a stong Ace if he read me for KK? Do you think a weaker Ace might "raise for info" in that situation thinking he was WA/WB? Thanks for bringing that up btw. I hadn't seen that concept verbalized before.

At the time, I figured that because it was 10nl, and not knowing whether this guy is a thinking player or not, there was a good chance that I didn't really have the fold equity to push him off of AJ-. Plus, I'm pretty sure he read my hand for JJ-KK given that I thought for a few seconds before firing the blocking/cbet. Because of the stakes, and my gut feeling on his read and my fold equity, I folded. Didn't feel like giving a stack to an A10-.

Do you think you get enough folds/calls from QQ-10's to make this a profitable shove over the long haul?

NO.

chattin35 said:

This is a great thought... why would he raise with a stong Ace if he read me for KK? Do you think a weaker Ace might "raise for info" in that situation thinking he was WA/WB? Thanks for bringing that up btw. I hadn't seen that concept verbalized before.

At the time, I figured that because it was 10nl, and not knowing whether this guy is a thinking player or not, there was a good chance that I didn't really have the fold equity to push him off of AJ-. Plus, I'm pretty sure he read my hand for JJ-KK given that I thought for a few seconds before firing the blocking/cbet. Because of the stakes, and my gut feeling on his read and my fold equity, I folded. Didn't feel like giving a stack to an A10-.

Do you think you get enough folds/calls from QQ-10's to make this a profitable shove over the long haul?

Click to expand...

The idea of jamming here is not to get the call but to pick up the obvious dead money that villian just put in the pot.

Think about how you'd play this. I don't care what everyone else says on this one he's never raising with an Ace. Good or bad players alike. He will fold 99% and call his 1% when your beat.

Put the 1% down to variance

WVHillbilly said:

How do we have a "decent hand to showdown" if we jam and he calls? What we have is 2 likely outs.

I think bet/folding readless is fine. If he's really passive and he only bets with his Ax hands, check/folding is the obvious choice.

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Im just saying it's a +ev move with ATC. Check your database for it.

You might be behind an ace 1% of the time but ahead of alot of worse hands that might call but prob won't so it's a good back up thats all. It's not like we'll reach showdown with 7 high lol when he hold 8 high.

Honestly, I have a hard time doing anything other than folding once villain puts us precisely on a hand. This is a standard c/c flop, c/f turn. If you're worried about getting exploited here by regs, my default is to c/c a flop this dry with AK as well.

baudib1 said:

Honestly, I have a hard time doing anything other than folding once villain puts us precisely on a hand. This is a standard c/c flop, c/f turn. If you're worried about getting exploited here by regs, my default is to c/c a flop this dry with AK as well.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight baudib1. I like that line a lot. It doesn't give away our hand and makes weak aces and PP's slow down on the turn. Question; if you check the the turn, and villian checks behind, do you like firing a small bet on the river? Then play exactly the same with AK...

chattin35 said:

Thanks for the insight baudib1. I like that line a lot. It doesn't give away our hand and makes weak aces and PP's slow down on the turn. Question; if you check the the turn, and villian checks behind, do you like firing a small bet on the river? Then play exactly the same with AK...

Click to expand...

well, it depends...I have made some (correct) hero calls with KK on scary boards, when I put them on a total bluff. the thing is, as OP states, position is really key, and you have to tend toward calling OOP more often as there are more bluffs in his range. I'd tend to fold to value-type bets unless they're really small on river.

baudib1 said:

Honestly, I have a hard time doing anything other than folding once villain puts us precisely on a hand. This is a standard c/c flop, c/f turn. If you're worried about getting exploited here by regs, my default is to c/c a flop this dry with AK as well.

Click to expand...

This is the line i take a huge chunk of the time with pretty close to 100% of my 3bets of ace high boards when im playing regs. Ill check all my aces and my big pairs.

Seeing as this is readless though, i probably just c/f instead of c/c-c/f, since it makes life simple

baudib1 said:

Honestly, I have a hard time doing anything other than folding once villain puts us precisely on a hand. This is a standard c/c flop, c/f turn. If you're worried about getting exploited here by regs, my default is to c/c a flop this dry with AK as well.

Click to expand...

As the three better why wouldn't an A be in your range?.

OOP why would you ever check this back with or without an A

in 3-bet pots I'd check the flop IP or OOP with or without an Ace on Ace-high, dry flops just about 90-100% of the time, unless I end up in a 3-bet pot with something like 44 or J9s and have little chance to win at showdown or if I flop a set or big draw. The reasons I'd do this are for balance, deception, because it's WA/WB and in 3-bet pots we don't need to go for 3 streets of value to get stacks in.

baudib1 said:

The reasons I'd do this are for balance, deception, because it's WA/WB and in 3-bet pots we don't need to go for 3 streets of value to get stacks in.

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Balance and deception are retarded at 10NL (and at most stakes), and villains will call flop c-bets lighter than they will call turn (and especially river) bets.

What you're advocating is essentially never c-betting, since the times you say you'll c-bet occur far more infrequently than the times you say you'll check the flop. And c-bets in 3-bet pots are a huge chunk of where our value comes from. As a live playing, full ring nit, this might work okay, since your opponents suck (and thus peel too often) and you always have a decent hand. But at 6-max, where we 3-bet a much wider range, we're going to need to be c-betting a lot more.