$10 NLHE Full Ring: This was a shove situation but I may have messed up preflop

$10 NL HE Full Ring: This was a shove situation but I may have messed up preflop

I feel I should have raised way more preflop. Result is that 5 players saw the flop. Was calling the shove here right? I believe it was right under circumstances where we are 2 to the flop but with 4 others?

CO: $10 (100 bb)
BTN: $3.85 (38.5 bb)
SB: $3.55 (35.5 bb)
BB: $3.50 (35 bb)
UTG+1: $11.60 (116 bb)
UTG+2: $5.23 (52.3 bb)
MP1: $5.60 (56 bb)
MP2: $10.42 (104.2 bb)
Hero (MP3): $10.37 (103.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with Q Q
UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN calls $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.50) 4 J 7 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.70, Hero raises to $2, BTN folds, SB calls $2, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $11.30 and is all-in, Hero calls $8.07 and is all-in, SB calls $1.25 and is all-in

Turn: ($24.89) J (3 players, 3 are all-in)
River: ($24.89) 3 (3 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: $24.89 pot ($1.65 rake)
Final Board: 4 J 7 J 3

Thanks

Depends on if you have any reads or not. If they're calling ststoons we'd obv bet more but if theyre tight or you don't have any reads then 3xbb is fine imo

I guess my question is the reasoning for your actions. I mean if it was simply "big pocket pair must put in stack no matter what..." then I guess thats not real good. But if you think that QQ is ahead of his range of hands- which could include AJ or KJ or sets or some bizarre two pair, or lots and lots of draws then this becomes pretty okay.
What kind of player is this guy? Will he flat preflop with KK or AA? Is he likely to stack off with TPTK? Does he bet draws? Seems like a lot of questions to ask.
If he's tight and is not likely to get it in without an amazing combo draw, or better hands your still pretty close from an equity position with QQ, especially if you discount KK and AA from the hands that show up- which you probably should I would think.

With the top of your range you do need to get more money in the pot. 3x then 1 extra per bet. But with this hand i don't think an extra 0,10$ was kicking people out behind you.

Saying that when you got donked into your raise was perfectly sized, I also wouldn't even bother thinking about the small blind with his stack size being so small. At this level though im probably calling here, if you run into a set then so be it, but so much of his range can be AJ KJ QJ any two hearts, which you need to punish for his stupid play.

prf i make it .50 since my standard raise is usualy 4xBB+1per limper.

I snap fold to his shove. He limp calls from UTG+1 and then donk/jams this board multiway.
I think this is a set a huge amount of the time.
Yes this is 10nl and there are alot of morons that will do all sorts of weird shit but from what i remeber there wasnt alot of aggresion at 10nl and you are pretty quick to identify the maniacs and since u didnt include some read like "villain is a huge aggro spew monkey" i will asume we dont have such a read.
So what are we really expecting to beat here?
Some people are gonna do this with JT-AJ,FDs but i think this is a set or even J7/J4(since he limp calls from UTG+1 i wouldnt rule it out) way more often and no matter how we try to weigh his range where never really much better then a flip and i suspect where not even flipping...

I don't know how I can edit my post so ill do it here. I didnt see the limper so id make 40 cents to go

.40 pre would be my standard but I think you have to fold to the flop 3bet. What do you think he does this with that you have good equity against? I mean for draws it's likely only 9Thh/89hh/Axhh where you're flipping and I think you see a ton of sets show up here.

I'm folding to the shove and noting his cards when exposed.

FTR he ended up having an open ender and a flush draw with 5h6h.

Ubercroz: Answers to your questions below and no I had no reads on the guy.

Sindri_93 & WVHillbilly: Thank you for your comments but at 10nl you wouldnt put in 100bb with a big overpair to the flop? My rational is that if theres a pair and a draw, I believe we are slightly ahead and flipping.

And I recall getting feedback on this type of situation where, yes, we will run into a set here and there but at this limit and with these players and this type of situation, its a snap call and we will run into FD's and TP more often than not.

Isnt it likely he would have re-raised me pre with AA/KK/AK?

Did you mean snap-fold because the pot was multiway? Would u call HU?

Question: In CASH GAMES, should we be flipping as the slight favorite as was the case above? Is that a profitable long term play?

Reason im asking is because I get into a lot of swings like this where i lose a stack, win a stack, in these situations. And I was telling myself I have to be doing something wrong, i cant build with huge swings like this. At one point when faced with monster raises like this i realise im likely flipping at best and behind at worst. Many tmes I called when my gut was telling me i wasnt a favorite but I felt I was playing it right, at least at these limits.

Sindri: yes, betting at these limits IS pretty predictable. They bet big when they have it and fold or min bet when they dont or are drawing.

Tx

Yes you should take flips. Yes they will cause huge swings. They're proffitable and you need to push small edges.

In hands like this though, you're hoping to be flipping and are dominated when you're not. It's not a flip, you're behind his range and should fold.

Limp-calls = pocket pairs, SCers, random junk. This range doesn't change a whole lot depending on players, although semi-thinking players don't have the junk anymore and fewer SCers, better players only have pocket pairs and the players who aren't completely brain dead just don't open limp call.

Anything that he can have that is willing to play for stacks here is at least flipping with you or has you dominated. SCers have a ton of combo draws or two pair, pocket pairs have a set, random junk will almost never shove.

I agree that it's a fold.

RAFC24 said:

Sindri_93 & WVHillbilly: Thank you for your comments but at 10nl you wouldnt put in 100bb with a big overpair to the flop?

Click to expand...

Obvs where stacking with overpairs alot of the time but like every thing in poker its highly situational and in this spot the only hands that make sense have us crushed.

Think about it this way when some one limp/calls from UTG what u think his most likely hands are? AJ,KJ,QJ,JT? sure some of the time he is gonna have hands like that especialy JT(for some reason fish love this hand) but more often its gonna be a small-mid PP or suited conecters, right?
Now if we give him the range of 22-TT, a few broadways and a few SC which of thouse hands are stacking off in a multiway pot on this board?
Ok Jx is gonna be there some of the time but alot of people arnt gonna stack Jx here but every one stacks a set here, they are also gonna stack big combo draws like he had some of the time but not allways.

There is a huge difrence in stacking a overpair when u open in LP and get called by the blinds or when MP raises and calls your 3bet then when some one limp/calls from utg+1 and the donk/jams a multiway pot since the ranges of hands that are stacking of in these situations are so hugely difrent.

But in all honestly allways stacking off with JJ+ overpairs at micro stacks with 100bb effective is never gonna be a huge leak imo.