$10 NLHE Full Ring: 2nd pair, flush draw against crazy loose and tight pass players.

RoyalFish

RoyalFish

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$10 NL HE Full Ring: 2nd pair, flush draw against crazy loose and tight pass players.

Hi, all. I'm just getting my feet wet with this hand analysis thing here. I've taken a dramatic beating in the last few days, down about 25% BR, although to my surprise PT3 says I'm running about even cash.

Anyway, I request the wisdom of those of you who suck less than I. How'd I do here? BB is super loose (77/17/45) and a calling station over 60 hands. CO was 12/0/33 over about 20 hands.

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP2: $10.09 (100.9 bb)
MP3: $13.49 (134.9 bb)
CO: $3.50 (35 bb)
BTN: $30.89 (308.9 bb)
RoyalFish (SB): $9.92 (99.2 bb)
BB: $3.48 (34.8 bb)
UTG+2: $6.70 (67 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: RoyalFish is SB with 9
diamond.gif
K
diamond.gif

UTG+2 calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN folds, RoyalFish completes, BB checks

Flop: ($0.40) T
diamond.gif
9
heart.gif
2
diamond.gif
(4 players)
RoyalFish bets $0.20, BB folds, UTG+2 calls $0.20, CO calls $0.20

Turn: ($1) K
club.gif
(3 players)
RoyalFish bets $0.50, UTG+2 folds, CO raises to $2.50, RoyalFish ???

Should I let this one go on the turn? Bet more on the flop? (with just middle pair?)

RF

 
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slycbnew

slycbnew

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Hey RF, interesting spot - I edited it slightly, hope you don't mind...

My 2 cents -

1. Don't complete the sb, raise or fold. UTG+2 and CO don't rate to have good hands - your hand isn't exactly premium, but they don't know that.

2. Bet more on the flop. It's a very nice flop for us.

3. Two pair w 2nd nut fd is enough for us imo to shove over CO's total stack of 33bb's. We're behind a lot of the time against a passive fish in this spot, but we've got some good outs and he's got more incentive to play TPTK strongly here than a normal stack would.

4. Note that if we'd raised pf and bet more on the flop, given effective stacks there'd be no way we're folding the turn, nothing to think about, effective stacks are committed on the flop.
 
KardKlub

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As above said.

You pick up so much equity on the turn it's an instant jam. If he has the nut straight you still have outs to a flush or full house. If he has the nuts flush then atleast you got it in good.

Try playing more aggressive in better positions and play very tight from the blinds. You will still get paid off with your good hands in the blinds because slot of people don't pay attension to were the raises are comming from, just that they do.

That way playing more ip will see your win rate sore.

Also try an polorise your 3 bets so you no for sure what you are raising for value and a bluff. I.e 3 bet. 56s is a bluff if 4 bet but you still have a good hand if called. And raise ak plus for value etc.
 
Steveg1976

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For me this is a fold preflop.

Both villians you identified are short stacks, they will be pot committed quickly. I don't know your game but if you are completely the SB with K9s against shorty's you are not adjusting correctly.

Personally I would leave if there that many short stacks at the table, 2 below 40bb and another with 67bb unless I am very good against the shorties and still there are easier more juicy tables to be played.

just my .02 but that is probably all it is worth anyway, gl.
 
thepokerkid123

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Steveg1976 said:
For me this is a fold preflop.

Both villians you identified are short stacks, they will be pot committed quickly. I don't know your game but if you are completely the SB with K9s against shorty's you are not adjusting correctly.
Click to expand...

K9s isn't bad against short stacks.

A raise to 50c-60c here to pick up the pot pre-flop some of the time, planning to almost always get stacks in if you hit top pair or a combo draw like this. Short stackers at 10nl are terrible, they're just people who are playing with money their bankroll can't afford, there's a lot of easy money to pick up with top pair type hands (K9s I think is about the bottom of that range when OOP).
 
RoyalFish

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Thanks, everybody.

I seem to hit a ton of calling stations, so I figured the 7:1 preflop odds were worth taking a flop with. I didnt want to play K9 oop for real money. K9 felt a lot less attractive if it cost me 5bb to see a flop, so if pushed to bet/fold, I would have folded. I feel pretty confident a standard raise would not have ended this hand pre with these particular players.

RF
 
B

BenLZ

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Shove, shove, shove.

Even on the flop your hand is 50/50 against aces (no diamond ace.)

I see no reason why you should be folding this. This is actually exactly how my aces were cracked yesterday, the guy flopped middle pair with a flush draw, and we ended up going all in and he won. Horrible day but after I looked it up it wasn't a suckout, it was a coinflip after the flop.
 
Steveg1976

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thepokerkid123 said:
K9s isn't bad against short stacks.

A raise to 50c-60c here to pick up the pot pre-flop some of the time, planning to almost always get stacks in if you hit top pair or a combo draw like this. Short stackers at 10nl are terrible, they're just people who are playing with money their bankroll can't afford, there's a lot of easy money to pick up with top pair type hands (K9s I think is about the bottom of that range when OOP).
Click to expand...

There is no reason to get in marginal situations with short stacks at the micros when there are so many bad players with full stacks. I am sorry but K9 is spew out of position or in, most of time you will wiff the flop completely and not know if you are ahead or behind, if you make top pair and it all goes in you don't know that you aren't out kicked which quite frankly isn't that hard with K9 and shorties show up with all kinds of weird two pairs. It just isn't worth the heart ache of getting involved with them.

I should add, that K9s is only 60/40 over ATC, and noone plays that loose.
 
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thepokerkid123

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Good players hate good SSers because they play a system that you can't exploit without giving up your edge against the full stacks. And yes, even the bad SSers are a nuisance because you've got less edge with such short stacks, and what edge you do have doesn't translate into many bb/100 because the wins are so small.

However, in this hand the only opponents are short stacks which means we can play to exploit them (still nowhere near as proffitable as playing against full stacks, but better than folding). Raising K9s pre-flop will either pick up the pot or create some dead money. Cbetting still works against short stacks at these stakes because plenty of them haven't figured out how often they can shove over you. Beyond one cbet, get stacks in with top pair or any situation where you've got enough fold equity and outs to justify it. The stacks are short enough that you can often shove something like a flush draw with a K overcard. Play fit or fold, there's no grey area post flop against short stacks, it's just about having a better shove range than they do.
 
Steveg1976

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thepokerkid123 said:
Good players hate good SSers because they play a system that you can't exploit without giving up your edge against the full stacks. And yes, even the bad SSers are a nuisance because you've got less edge with such short stacks, and what edge you do have doesn't translate into many bb/100 because the wins are so small.

However, in this hand the only opponents are short stacks which means we can play to exploit them (still nowhere near as proffitable as playing against full stacks, but better than folding). Raising K9s pre-flop will either pick up the pot or create some dead money. Cbetting still works against short stacks at these stakes because plenty of them haven't figured out how often they can shove over you. Beyond one cbet, get stacks in with top pair or any situation where you've got enough fold equity and outs to justify it. The stacks are short enough that you can often shove something like a flush draw with a K overcard. Play fit or fold, there's no grey area post flop against short stacks, it's just about having a better shove range than they do.
Click to expand...

That is my point once your Cbet is called/raised after a preflop raise unless you are holding complete rags you will be almost complelled to call any shove with no idea what the villian has. That is why I am saying avoid marginal situations where is easy to make a mistake like raising K9 hitting top pair on a J95 rainbow board and being behind.
 
dwolfg

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Too small of a bet on flop. Don't bet according to your hand strength, but the board texture and how well you believe your opponents range connects to the board. Here anything less than .35 is too small imo.
 
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