$10 NLHE 6-max: turn semibluff?

N

nidal55

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Total posts
228
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 25/19/4

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 152.8 BB (VPIP: 14.44, PFR: 12.22, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, hands: 92)
BB: 210.5 BB (VPIP: 25.56, PFR: 19.55, 3Bet Preflop: 4.44, Hands: 136)
Hero (UTG): 138.5 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 416)
BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 18.71, PFR: 16.77, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 162)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:club: Q:diamond:

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) J:spade: 3:club: 4:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 4.9 BB, BB calls 4.9 BB

Turn: (16.3 BB, 2 players) K:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 12.4 BB, BB raises to 35 BB Hero?

i think without reads cant really say i love calling here but raise is small. when multitabling these spots look terrible cause i hate paying people off but i would be glad to read what you would do here yourselves. thnx for ur answers!
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
not many villains at 10NL are balancing their turn check raises w semibluffs, bc theres simply no need. i like the bet/fold line on the turn far more than c/c or c/f. id prefer a slightly smaller bet (910.5bb'ish) though to entice villains to call more often w clubs and Jx

nh

ps; for reasons mentioned above, i find that sticking in a legit raise when IP with flopped draws vs 90% of tag regs is one of the best ways to exploit villains at this stake. everyone who plays micros with half a brain thinks that a turn raise is 'always the nuts'
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
check back turn ,,,check call river.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
check back turn ,,,check call river.

uh why?

villain has so many worse combos that call us and the turn very rarely helps him. checking turn misses value and we hate so many river cards,
 
micromachine

micromachine

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Total posts
5,770
Chips
0
Agree with b/f'ing the turn.

If he flats and then checks the river I'm checking back or, if he leads out, folding.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
uh why?

villain has so many worse combos that call us and the turn very rarely helps him. checking turn misses value and we hate so many river cards,


because its the best way to play it that makes sense IMO. If he has it(the K) hes going to make you pay only one time on the river. If he doesnt the fact that you checked it allows him to represent it on the river even if he doesnt have it in order to maximise your profit. There is no other way you can make more money off of your hand than then to allow him to represent the K with by donking the river.

Your hand turned on the turn from a value hand to a bluffcatcher and that is why i hate it when you bet the turn. Your line no longer makes sense when you bet the turn in my opinion.


I would definitely like a huge bet on the turn had that K not shown up and esp with the flush draw to protect my hand but the board got a bit too scarry for my liking when that K comes in order to overinflate the pot. I sometimes chose to switch gear within a hand according to how the board runs out.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Total posts
2,490
Chips
0
because its the best way to play it that makes sense IMO. If he has it(the K) hes going to make you pay only one time on the river.

do you 3b KK preflop, but then then fold if villain 4b shoves because he might have AA? no. its an extreme example yes, but it illustrates that we dont choose an action because of what might happen. we look at the likelyhoods.

re read my post, and stop being results orientated, then give that guy a range. remember that villain is a competent looking TAG, and is calling an UTG open from the BB.
how do we range villain, based on his stats and with the knowledge that he;
1. called an open raise from (i am assuming) a UTG positionally aware hero
2. check called the flop.

think about it dude, villain only ever has a king with KTcc, or KJo. literally. there arent other Kx combos he will have on that turn assuming he 3bets AKcc, and we have the Qc blocker to KQcc. he also check called OOP OTF, so villain not floating very often at all.

now think about the hands that we beat that villian could call the flop with and could call the turn too. theres all the Jx that doesnt have the king, a ton of straights/gutters/flush combos. so theres plenty more in villains range that will call the turn as a dog to our QQ, than there is that hit the turn and are now ahead. for this reason we miss value if we dont bet the turn


If he doesnt the fact that you checked it allows him to represent it on the river even if he doesnt have it in order to maximise your profit. There is no other way you can make more money off of your hand than then to allow him to represent the K with by donking the river.

we all know that before we make an action, we ask ourselves "are there worse hands that can call us here?" i once heard 'if you cant think of three hands you beat, straight away, then dont bet'. so..... 3 incredibly obvious hands that snap call the turn without even thinking twice, that we beat with QQ

1. AJ
2. ATcc
3. one of either A5ss, A5cc, A2ss, A2cc, 56ss, 56cc, i list a few because theyll be called more rarely preflop.


Your hand turned on the turn from a value hand to a bluffcatcher and that is why i hate it when you bet the turn. Your line no longer makes sense when you bet the turn in my opinion.

thats the thing though. it actually didnt turn into a bluff catcher, because he has an absolutely minimal combination of kings in his hand after he check/calls the flop. so the K isnt actually a scare card for us at all.
our hand becomes a bluff catcher when we check back the turn, and one of the TON of scare cards comes, and we have to make a complete guess as to whether or not were ahead. heres the best part. like you said, this villain will bet his air hands on this river because we showed weakness. but how can we call if the river is a club, spade, 2, 5, ace or ten? all of those cards give him a hand he can represent. so wait, you want to bluff catch half the cards left in the deck, but you dont want to bet a turn for value when theres only a few combos of K that ever get to the turn?

not to mention, villain actually can make a better hand for free with all his club draws, straight draws, funky Jx two pairs that we could have charged him for, and we end up paying him off instead of getting value





hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
do you 3b KK preflop, but then then fold if villain 4b shoves because he might have AA? no. its an extreme example yes, but it illustrates that we dont choose an action because of what might happen. we look at the likelyhoods.

re read my post, and stop being results orientated, then give that guy a range. remember that villain is a competent looking TAG, and is calling an UTG open from the BB.
how do we range villain, based on his stats and with the knowledge that he;
1. called an open raise from (i am assuming) a UTG positionally aware hero
2. check called the flop.

think about it dude, villain only ever has a king with KTcc, or KJo. literally. there arent other Kx combos he will have on that turn assuming he 3bets AKcc, and we have the Qc blocker to KQcc. he also check called OOP OTF, so villain not floating very often at all.

now think about the hands that we beat that villian could call the flop with and could call the turn too. theres all the Jx that doesnt have the king, a ton of straights/gutters/flush combos. so theres plenty more in villains range that will call the turn as a dog to our QQ, than there is that hit the turn and are now ahead. for this reason we miss value if we dont bet the turn




we all know that before we make an action, we ask ourselves "are there worse hands that can call us here?" i once heard 'if you cant think of three hands you beat, straight away, then dont bet'. so..... 3 incredibly obvious hands that snap call the turn without even thinking twice, that we beat with QQ

1. AJ
2. ATcc
3. one of either A5ss, A5cc, A2ss, A2cc, 56ss, 56cc, i list a few because theyll be called more rarely preflop.




thats the thing though. it actually didnt turn into a bluff catcher, because he has an absolutely minimal combination of kings in his hand after he check/calls the flop. so the K isnt actually a scare card for us at all.
our hand becomes a bluff catcher when we check back the turn, and one of the TON of scare cards comes, and we have to make a complete guess as to whether or not were ahead. heres the best part. like you said, this villain will bet his air hands on this river because we showed weakness. but how can we call if the river is a club, spade, 2, 5, ace or ten? all of those cards give him a hand he can represent. so wait, you want to bluff catch half the cards left in the deck, but you dont want to bet a turn for value when theres only a few combos of K that ever get to the turn?

not to mention, villain actually can make a better hand for free with all his club draws, straight draws, funky Jx two pairs that we could have charged him for, and we end up paying him off instead of getting value





hope this helps.


It actually really does. Thanks.:) But the line i described is how i would play it. I want a little pot control on this turn because im not loving it.

And im not being results oriented. This is how i would actually play the hand. If you disagree, i totally understand you. you forgot to mention the 55 to TT pocket pairs that would love to either turn their hand into a bluff when you check turn and that might mistake your check for weakness and call another bullet on the river when the blank hits. So ,,again, i dont think the line you describe is the only way to go about in this hand.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
But yea, after looking over your reply again this morning i realise you are right. The check on the turn is a weak play on our behalf and it is definitely a raise cause we DO get called by worse.

thanks alot for putting in the time to reply to my post. Much appreciated. Ignore my post above.



EDIT: actually after looking closer to your post, i must say that its the best possible way to play it. thanks again.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
I didn't read the stuff above but it's a simple fold on the turn.

Raise more pre and 3/4 pot size on the flop ... also turn is raise/fold


I don't agree with checking back on the turn because it really makes you appear weak and if he has a weak king, he'll often know he's good but if you raise then your putting him in a tough spot and not yourself.

His vpip I think he'd often be good here though and the check/raise definetly justifies a fold.
 
Last edited:
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Okay after reading the stuff above.... Your actually pot controlling by betting the turn. If he raises you the pots out of control and you fold.

You want the value and you definetly got fold equity especially if we are facing PP which he may have. You have to remember what scares us may scare him as well? why give him free info and say hey take the chips!!! ... I'd rather fight and play like the same as every other hand and keep him guessing.
 
Top