$10 NLHE 6-max: Turn Jam, Call or Fold??

ConDeck

ConDeck

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***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** (poker stars)

$10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 24, 03:23:12 ET 2015
Table Mauderli II (real money)

Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: Hero ( $11.38 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 16, 3B: 9, AF: 2.1, hands: 78618
Seat 2: Player2 ( $5.71 USD ) - VPIP: 22, PFR: 13, 3B: 13, AF: 4.0, Hands: 32
Seat 4: Player4 ( $10.79 USD ) - VPIP: 26, PFR: 16, 3B: 6, AF: 1.3, Hands: 141
Seat 5: Player5 ( $9.72 USD ) - VPIP: 29, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 1.3, Hands: 42
Seat 6: Player6 ( $18.84 USD ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 17, 3B: 0, AF: 4.5, Hands: 63

Player6 posts small blind [$0.05 USD].

Hero posts big blind [$0.10 USD].

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to Hero [ 8s 6s ]
Player2 folds
Player4 raises [$0.30 USD]
Player5 calls [$0.30 USD]
Player6 folds
Hero calls [$0.20 USD]

** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 5c, 7h ]

Hero checks
Player4 bets [$0.70 USD]
Player5 calls [$0.70 USD]
Hero calls [$0.70 USD]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]

Hero checks
Player4 checks
Player5 bets [$2.10 USD]
Hero calls [$2.10 USD]
Player4 raises [$9.79 USD]
Player5 calls [$6.62 USD]
Hero calls [$7.69 USD]

** Dealing River ** [ Th ]

Hero shows [8s, 6s ]
Player4 shows [??,?? ]
Player4 wins $2.04 USD from main pot
Player5 shows [??,?? ]
Player5 wins $27.90 USD from main pot

Just wanted some opinions on the above hand, particularly the turn play... Should I be jamming here or is the flat then stack ok? Does anyone fold this to the turn bet or jam with both villain 1 and 2 being so passive?

Ill update to include there actual hands after you guys have shared your opinions.
 
Delvuter

Delvuter

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I am so confused by the question and I have seen this question so many times. Jam in early position or flat then stack. What would jamming do? Obviously we don't know that they are going to jam, but knowing that they jam after you flat makes asking the question weird to me. So if you would have jammed before them they would have folded, is that it? Like I mentioned before seems to get to fancy. He shows aggression I am folding my drawing hand on the turn because I am not getting pot odds to call, simple.
 
ConDeck

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My thinking went as follows:

CO has a 16% PFR overall, without looking at HEM lets assume this is around 20% from the CO.

BTN Calling is playing a 27% VPIP and 17% PFR so, again without checking HEM I think it is fair to assume his flat call range here is still pretty wide, we have no 3 bet stats but it is fair to assume he 3 bets at least AA, KK, QQ and AK (this may not be the case and I would expect it to be wider but the majority of the time we can remove these hands).

Flat calling from the BB here is just over just over 3.5 to 1 and we have about 25-30% equity + some decent implied odds against both ranges I figure.

On flop:

Ts7h5c

We can assume PFR is going to cbet this board a fair amount of the time with any made hand and some overs/draws.

When BTN calls we can narrow his range too, but we have to keep in mind its doubtful he raises any of his monsters like sets/overpairs etc as this is a pretty safe board and it’s hard to get value from worse though so his range is probably around.

After calling preflop we pretty much have to see a turn when we are offered 3:1 odds with our open ended SD. Why else are we calling preflop other than to pick up draws like this...

Turn brings 3s so board is now

Ts7h5c3s

At this point PFR checks and BTN bets a decent amount so we can now narrow his range again although he will have some bluffs/semi bluffs and hands that he turns into a bluff here when checked too.

The reason for my flat call here with my FD and open ended SD are that the pot odds are roughly 2.5:1 and we still have about 25-30% equity (I figure) against most of both villain’s ranges and if we factor in implied odds when either player has a decent hand (as at this stake you get paid off too often) then I think we are just about getting the odds to call here long term (obviously this was done roughly in game). I think we are rarely drawing dead also as a larger spade hand is unlikely here.

My question is whether or not my thinking is correct or flawed above? Does anyone just fold the hand here? Are we better jamming here when the BTN bets? With only the BTN showing aggression on the turn and with him and the CO having a good number of hands that cannot call a shove, plus our equity as “back up” when called is this the best play here?
 
Aces2w1n

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Personally I don't like the flat pre OOP, this could be a leak in your game.

Think ahead before you decide to play these type of hands, You should've check raised the flop to setup for a jam on the turn.

PLAN AHEAD.

3bet pre can be quite fun and i'm a fan of at least donk betting on these boards when our villains ranges will have missed a lot on that board.
 
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Aces2w1n

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Also i'd like to add that you saying your opponent could be wide.

Your wide and your opponent is wide? we would rather prefer knowing our opponent is playing high cards or premium pairs rather than be wide, at least we know where we are at.

With knowing our villain is wide or guessing his range is anyway, this will add even more reverse implied odds with our straight draws

Which still creates even a bigger case in folding pre. Select ur opponents better.
 
akaRobbo

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Dump it pre m8.

With respect, this is spewy and fishy flatting.
 
Ozzzzy

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U had 15 odds, its like 1 times in 3 u will get best hand, so u need 3 to 1 pot value to call. Here u got 2.10$ for 5.05$ pot, so fold. Its also wrong to call because:
1) One of them could have two cards of clubs, that beat yours.
2) You dont know what player4 gonna do after you call. He definetely will raise with strong hand and u will have to call, and he definetely will fold with weak hand, that means you cant get chips from him anymore.
 
ConDeck

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Thanks guys. This may well be a leak that needs closing, I've been trying too loosen my range some and think I may have gone to far the other way, or at least being too passive about it.

I think in future this is a definite 3bet or fold situation and I'm leaning toward fold.

As it turned out original opener had AA and flat call behind was KK (odd lines I know)
 
Delvuter

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No way, that is exactly the hand you we like! I think, I am learning here. But yeah, a single suited gapper has massive potential. Nobody expects it when you do hit the board hard. 3-betting and 4-betting pre are massive tools. Taking down pots and getting them to fold is the game plan with drawing hands. If we hit the nuts extracting chips becomes the objective. We want to have a increased 3-bet/4-bet to keep people from toying with us, we want to play more wide a range also induce action when we do hit hard. If you balance that out people fear ya at the table, they don't know how to play against you.
 
akaRobbo

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No way, that is exactly the hand you we like! I think, I am learning here. But yeah, a single suited gapper has massive potential. Nobody expects it when you do hit the board hard. 3-betting and 4-betting pre are massive tools. Taking down pots and getting them to fold is the game plan with drawing hands. If we hit the nuts extracting chips becomes the objective. We want to have a increased 3-bet/4-bet to keep people from toying with us, we want to play more wide a range also induce action when we do hit hard. If you balance that out people fear ya at the table, they don't know how to play against you.

3betting is better than flatting.
4betting this at 10nl 100bb deep is bad imo. We run into so many nutted premiums and there's no need to get this out of line.
 
Delvuter

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3betting is better than flatting.
4betting this at 10nl 100bb deep is bad imo. We run into so many nutted premiums and there's no need to get this out of line.

Oh, yeah, for sure. I would not 4-bet 86s. I meant in general 3-bet/4-bet are great tools. I will 3-bet 86s depending on my table image. That is the absolute bottom of my range and I will only get down that far if my cards aren't coming and my VPIP is getting down around 25%. I will start to 4-bet once people start adjusting to my 3-bets and adjust again when I start to get 4-bet, that is when I slam 'em with a monster hand when they don't see it coming in my apparent wide range.

I rarely ever call as my initial action pre, mostly when set mining.
 
IPlay

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Really good spot to squeeze preflop AND on the flop. I personally wouldn't be flatting this pre unless I was in position and even still I prefer connectors and not one gappers.
 
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