$10 NLHE 6-max: TT UTG vs BTN 3bet

fletchdad

fletchdad

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Stats on Villain:
3Bet 7% 4B range 1.7%
What other stats are relevant, or do they even matter here? His bet sizing is weird, I cant really call to set mine, I could just call and plan to bet certain flops, but am not really sure how best to proceed here. Folding seems to me to be best since I dont know what to do...........:(

full tilt poker $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2062326
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $10.00 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 17, 3B: 4, AF: 11.0, hands: 146
BTN: $10.62 - VPIP: 17, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 3.6, Hands: 508
SB: $21.36 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 2.8, Hands: 197
BB: $15.18 - VPIP: 34, PFR: 24, 3B: 17, AF: 2.5, Hands: 337
Hero (UTG): $10.35 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 14, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 45554
MP: $10.00 - VPIP: 12, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.0, Hands: 571

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with T :diamond: T :club:
Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1.05, 2 folds, Hero ?
 
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RamdeeBen

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I'd just fold.

However, you have a decent hand sample size, so what are villians tendencies?

Isn't 7% 3bet quite high in general though? Obviously he has same hand sample size on you so he could be 3betting lighter based on his stats on you? What's your fold to 3bet percentage? if it's quite high, I'd be inclined to flat at least or maybe 4bet?
 
acky100

acky100

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flat or fold, 4bet bluff with a better hand (KQo or something) I prefer calling over folding but i wouldn't hate folding if you felt like you were gonna do something stupid postflop
 
youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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Prefer folding here, playing hands like this oop in 3 bet pots can be tough.
 
ChuckTs

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Calling shouldn't enter the equation. CALLING 3BETS OOP WITH MEDIUM PAIRS WILL LOSE YOU MONEY. It's 4bet or fold, and I'd say this is a pretty standard fold.

With that many hands you might have enough to start to look at his positional 3bets, especially '3bet vs position'. That, or some good ol' reads. It would take an especially high '****ing with me' read to stack TT here though.
 
JusSumguy

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Bangin the boards more lately Chuck?

I, for one, appreciate it. Keep it up. I learn much from you.

-
 
acky100

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Calling shouldn't enter the equation. CALLING 3BETS OOP WITH MEDIUM PAIRS WILL LOSE YOU MONEY. It's 4bet or fold, and I'd say this is a pretty standard fold.

With that many hands you might have enough to start to look at his positional 3bets, especially '3bet vs position'. That, or some good ol' reads. It would take an especially high '****ing with me' read to stack TT here though.

I think this is a bit of an unfair statement, when i filter for these spots over a big sample im making more money than if i fold. Not saying its a fist pump value spot, but we have a guy 3betting a pretty polarised range IP (usually more air than value too it seems) and we are getting a good price and have quite a protected range, as we will also be calling with stuff like AK,AQ,KQs, and bigger pairs. Just seems a bit silly to say that its basically terrible without any obvious evidence apart from yeh we all know it sucks being oop in 3bet pots, just not enough here with the things we have going for us to make it a fold imo.
 
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nidal55

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cant we set mine? why? and with 7% 3betting tendencies isnt that a snap call? why 4bet and risk everything? when he 3bets he knows were tight and utg so it wouldnt look bluffy were not in the CO. and in my opinion why not set mine if 8/10 people unstack with big pairs playing them overly aggressive. isnt it 1/8 to hit a set? doesnt he have $9 more? whats the problem?
 
acky100

acky100

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we can't really set mine here, not just set mine anyways,yeh its about 1/8 to hit a set but he isnt just 3betting hands that are stacking off every time we hit our set (he is most liklely polarised here 3betting his monsters and some bluffs so our implied odds arent as high as if a nit with a 2% 3bet, 3bet us.) However we do have a pretty strong hand still and are against a guy which is 3betting 7% so we crush all his bluffs and dont have to rely on set mining exclusively. We can bet good turns when he checks back the flop and we can usually just call a street on good boards and make him check down AK and bluffs often enough to make calling the option for me, but yeh don't rely on just set mining vs polarised ranges, your implied odds arent good enough.
 
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orangepeeleo

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I prob fold, but thats b/c im shit post flop oop, my standard line would be for example: flop comes Jxx and nice n dry, I c/c, and then c/f most turns lol

Like I understand board texture and that its hard for him to hit Jxx rainbow, so i'm happy check calling one, but I fold too much to turn cbets to make a call here profitable for me.

Hope I've explained that well enough lol, basically I suck at poker so its prob best for me to fold pre!
 
acky100

acky100

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thats probably fine peels, you guys problems is you cry when you dont win all the pots, i check call on jxx and fold to a turn bet happy knowing i have JJ, QQ and likely some KK in my range some AK with flush draws/bdfds and same for AQ, AJs, and that and people dont fire 2 or 3 with bluffs often anyways when i rep JJ,QQ type hands perfectly well, so it'd be well played if you x/c that flop then x/f the turn imo. What can be bad is folding 85% of your pf range UTG to a 3bet when a guy is 3betting a pretty wide and not super strong range when youre getting like 2:1 and only need to realise 33% equity when you probably have 50% vs his range, meh its fine folding really i think i used to fold this hand all the time and i doubt it effected my bottom line too much, its just a nice example of idenfiying your own leaks because as you can probably tell if youre folding TT here youre likely folding JJ then youre probably folding 85%+ of your UTG range, which is obviously not great but it is fine to take lower EV strategies when theyre marginal and people arent going to catch on and exploit you as much. It's a spot i'd probably fold if i were playing 16 tables for obvious reasons but yeh, i still stand by it being pretty fine to call vs this guy especially. Its probably fine for you to fold it peels cause you open like 6% utg :D
 
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nidal55

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thats probably fine peels, you guys problems is you cry when you dont win all the pots, i check call on jxx and fold to a turn bet happy knowing i have JJ, QQ and likely some KK in my range some AK with flush draws/bdfds and same for AQ, AJs, and that and people dont fire 2 or 3 with bluffs often anyways when i rep JJ,QQ type hands perfectly well, so it'd be well played if you x/c that flop then x/f the turn imo. What can be bad is folding 85% of your pf range UTG to a 3bet when a guy is 3betting a pretty wide and not super strong range when youre getting like 2:1 and only need to realise 33% equity when you probably have 50% vs his range, meh its fine folding really i think i used to fold this hand all the time and i doubt it effected my bottom line too much, its just a nice example of idenfiying your own leaks because as you can probably tell if youre folding TT here youre likely folding JJ then youre probably folding 85%+ of your UTG range, which is obviously not great but it is fine to take lower EV strategies when theyre marginal and people arent going to catch on and exploit you as much. It's a spot i'd probably fold if i were playing 16 tables for obvious reasons but yeh, i still stand by it being pretty fine to call vs this guy especially. Its probably fine for you to fold it peels cause you open like 6% utg :D
Totally agree
 
ChuckTs

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Against anyone half competent, we're allowing him to play perfectly in a big pot with position by flatting. We have a very clearly defined range (middle pairs, sometimes AQs), and realistically never have QQ+/AK/anything else unless villain perceives us as bad.

Sure, if he's bad and doesn't value bet thinly enough, doesn't bluff effectively, and doesn't use his position properly, then we can start flatting, but basically anywhere over 50nl you're getting owned by flatting here vs your typical regular.

It may be profitable at 10nl if done by a competent player who actually studies and grinds lots, but even so I always burn this into student's brains because developing it as a habit is terrible as soon as you start to move up to small stakes.

I'd be interested to see your filter and what stakes that's at acky.
 
acky100

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stakes are 100nl whilst i agree it might be fine to teach students to avoid marginal spots if they arent very confident playing post flop i still think its wrong to just say that calling here at small stakes is terrible
 
acky100

acky100

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Okay here is the filter to back up my argument that this isn't a terrible habit at small stakes (never mind the micros where everyone is much worse!)

Filtered stakes 50nl-200nl for when i raise first in and call a 3bet in early-middle position seats and someone 3bets NOT in the blinds so i'm always calling the 3bet OOP.

Hands 88,99,TT,JJ to get a better picture but in reality im not as happy as calling 88 as TT for obvious reasons.

results:

So over a 500k ish hand sample there was only 104 samples of me calling OOP with one of these hands, makes sense our early-middle position opens don't get 3bet a ton and a lot of the time the 3bettor is only 3betting a nutted range in which case i don't call because i dont think you can purely set mine with these hands.

So results are that i've lost -2.35bb hand or -235bb/100, however it looks like i got my money in good and lost in some of these spots so the All-in adjusted of my strategy with these hands has me losing -112bb/100 or -1.1bb/hand.

This is a pretty great ****ing result for me, if i were to fold these hands i'd lose -3bb/hand or -300bb/100 so by calling im essentially making 1.8bb/hand or close to 2 full buyins every 100 times compared to the regs who just fold here.
reducing money lost in poker is exactly the same as increasing money won so i think this shows that if you pick your spots wisely calling is clearly > folding
not to mention the benefit of not having a target on your back because your fold to 3bet is 80% and this will in turn make your big hands more profitable cause it wont be so obvious that when you 4bet or call you are super strong.
 

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