€10 NLHE 6-max: TPTK vs aggro villain

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 55/18/3

78 hands on him, no notes just those stats. I raised the flop for value, but then he shoves. I need to be good 41% of the time here to call profitable.

Do you assume in this situation there are some draws like AcQc or TPGK that do this, or just sets/overpairs ?

One more thing of note was it was all insta, he insta cbet and insta 3-bet shoved the flop.

Entraction - €0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: €12.78
SB: €10.99
Hero (BB): €10.00
UTG: €10.00
MP: €6.35
CO: €10.41

SB posts SB €0.05, Hero posts BB €0.10

Pre Flop: (€0.15) Hero has T:diamond: A:heart:

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to €0.20, Hero calls €0.10

Flop: (€0.40, 2 players) 7:diamond: 5:club: T:club:
SB bets €0.40, Hero raises to €1.60, SB raises to €10.79 and is all-in, Hero ????

i think there are definitely draws against a guy like this. did you think about 3betting pre? idk if thats a great move, but some people play a lot different bvb so i think there is a lot of value to it in general.

seems fine

Well played, now snap this off.

Ok so everyone is cool with it. I think there is merit to 3betting it pre, it would be for value and I want a bigger pot playing for value. Also I could have raised more on the flop even looking at it now, as there is lots of stuff that can call.

against this guy im definitely going to 3bet for value pre. Also i call the flop, if i'm beat, oh well

I'm not value 3-betting this preflop. I don't want to stack this pre, and I don't think we hit enough flops to put up with his post flop shenanigans.

Just keep in mind that his other stats might be pretty aggressive, but a PFR of 18% isn't incredibly high. Its certainly not high enough to stack off with AT.

People go crazy in blind on blind battles all the time. I snap call this.

IME, he has a worse ten a lot, an overplayed underpair a reasonable amount, draws a reasonable amount, complete air some less significant but not unreasonable amount, and your hand beat some statistically insignificant amount of the time.

Looking at how loose the villain is, also keep in mind that with a PFR of 18% he actually raised the unopened pot instead of limping. Meaning he has something of value. Even though I've seen loose villain's like this raise all in with total air, there's a big chance he has you beat on this hand. I would have played that hand really cautious.

Doesn't 3-betting pre take this down often enough?

Even when he calls we play the flop in position...

Double-A said:

Doesn't 3-betting pre take this down often enough?

Even when he calls we play the flop in position...

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What? Look at his VPIP, this guy cannot fold. There's no way 3-betting takes this down preflop, and I expect him to do a ton of stuff like this on the flop (shove random air, check/min-raise just about every flop, ect.). Against guys who do not give up, you make a hand that's ahead of their range as cheaply as possible, and then you jam the money in. Its not complex.

c9h13no3 said:

What? Look at his VPIP, this guy cannot fold. There's no way 3-betting takes this down preflop, and I expect him to do a ton of stuff like this on the flop (shove random air, check/min-raise just about every flop, ect.). Against guys who do not give up, you make a hand that's ahead of their range as cheaply as possible, and then you jam the money in. Its not complex.

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Do we know his fold to 3bet% ?

Double-A said:

Do we know his fold to 3bet% ?

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I don't, but I'd bet big $ since his fold to *nothing* is 45%, once he decides to play a hand, he probably doesn't give up easily.

c9h13no3 said:

I don't, but I'd bet big $ since his fold to *nothing* is 45%, once he decides to play a hand, he probably doesn't give up easily.

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c, I don't want to wind up yelling flat or 3bet at each other...

If he doesn't fold to 3bets a lot, if he doesn't steal a lot, or if we have a bad image, then we should probably flat.

Without that information, I'm 3betting. Some reasons, in no particular order:

I want to see how he handles 3bets.

I think he's opening with a WIDE range I'm probably ahead of.

Sometimes, he's stealing...

Sometimes he folds, and when he doesn't, I'll muck a probable loser or play a pot in position with the initiative.

BUT, when I play my "intuitive game", I don't 3bet nearly enough. For me to keep my 3bet% where I like it, I have to constantly look for opportunities to do so... For me, this would be one of them.

ATo simply does not play well enough in 3b pots against guys like this

vanquish said:

ATo simply does not play well enough in 3b pots against guys like this

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So easy Fold??

the lab man said:

So easy Fold??

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call, given amazing pot odds?


edit: are you talking about preflop? preflop its a very easy call, postflop it's a pretty standard call because TPTK is good against guys like this. c9 pretty much explained everything already.

It's a good discussion about 3-betting. I'm probably still more inclined to call, especially since AT was a losing hand for me last time I looked, b/c I was being too aggressive with it.

Now, let's take this discussion further : We have ATo OOP against this guy. Do we 3-bet for thin value, fold, or call? What about ATs ?

Double-A said:

BUT, when I play my "intuitive game", I don't 3bet nearly enough. For me to keep my 3bet% where I like it, I have to constantly look for opportunities to do so... For me, this would be one of them.

Click to expand...

Stop thinking about your 3-bet percentage, and think about these percentages:

49.148% { AcTd }
50.852% { 66+, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+ }

We're not a favorite over his 18% preflop raising range. Now, I will admit, he probably raises larger than 18% here, given he's stealing. But if we 3-bet, he'll probably fold out the lower 20%-30% of his range putting us as an equity dog.

And that's just the hot/cold equity. ATo doesn't flop very well. You end up with a weak top pair either way, or a gutshot. Neither play very well, especially in big 3-bet pots.

So in conclusion, I think we're turning ATo into a bluff if we 3-bet here, and its got too much equity and gives off too many RIO if we do that.

I think Raheem Morris (coach of a Tampa Bay Buccaneers) said one of my favorite quotes of all time: "Stats are for losers. You keep thinking about stats, and I'll keep winning." Worrying about what your 3-bet percentage "should" be is silly, worry about the rationale behind why you 3-bet.

c9h13no3 said:

But if we 3-bet, he'll probably fold out the lower 20%-30% of his range putting us as an equity dog.

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Earlier you said, "this guy cannot fold" and, "There's no way 3-betting takes this down preflop".

Just busting balls...

c,

I don't think about my 3bet% while playing.

I know ATo is a coin flip against 50%.

I'm not playing ATo... I'm facing a min raise, in a blind vs blind situation, against a guy who plays way too many hands. I'm playing my position. If I hadn't looked at my cards, I'd still 3bet here.

Raheem Morris is 12-19 w/ Tampa.

My current database only has around 30k hands... I've 3bet ATo five times and have broke even. I've flatted seven times and lost $2.

I'm not sure how valuable our discussion is...

Double-A said:

I'm facing a min raise, in a blind vs blind situation, against a guy who plays way too many hands. I'm playing my position. If I hadn't looked at my cards, I'd still 3bet here.

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there's a range of hands you should 3b in this spot (against this villain), it's pretty wide. ATo should not fall into this range, because there is still a range of hands you should be flatting with, which better fits ATo than the 3betting range (or the folding range).

vanquish said:

there's a range of hands you should 3b in this spot (against this villain), it's pretty wide. ATo should not fall into this range, because there is still a range of hands you should be flatting with, which better fits ATo than the 3betting range (or the folding range).

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What should our 3bet range be? What range should we flat with?

I'm genuinely curious... I also feel like play from the blinds is a trouble spot for me. Wondering if I should start another thread...

I do see a lot of the argument for flatting. Looking over my hands, I've flatted ATo from the BB more times than I've 3bet... But min raise, blind vs blind, from a guy who plays too many hands is just begging to get popped. Some times I take it down, sometimes I step in shit, and the rest of the time I play a heads up pot against a bad player IP.

I don't see that as a huge error.

blah way too drunk to continue with this discussion. we'll see if c9 wants to answer that question, otherwise we might have to wait until 2011 and i'm in sober mode until you get an adequate answer