$10 NLHE 6-max: TPTK: Did I overplay this hand?

$10 NL HE 6-max: TPTK: Did I overplay this hand?

The table was fairly tight, except for the occasional big hand. Since he was only calling, I put him on a flush draw or maybe a pair. I know that it is not protocol to post the entire hand, but I never ran into a situation like this before. Is there any way to put the brakes on here? Or just another bad day?

full tilt poker Game #15042297384: Table Hurt (6 max, deep) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:49:26 ET - 2009/09/30
Seat 2: Juniorsdaddy ($19.62)
Seat 3: bi11 frist1 ($25.63)
Seat 4: JJ-Donks ($26.42), is sitting out
Seat 5: Rufus215 ($18.36)
Seat 6: scrodlebot5000 ($3.50)
Juniorsdaddy posts the small blind of $0.05
bi11 frist1 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Juniorsdaddy [Jd As]
Rufus215 folds
StFlushK stands up
scrodlebot5000 calls $0.10
Juniorsdaddy raises to $0.40
bi11 frist1 calls $0.30
scrodlebot5000 calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [7h 3h Js]
team sangha sits down
Juniorsdaddy bets $1.20
team sangha adds $12
bi11 frist1 calls $1.20
scrodlebot5000 folds
*** TURN *** [7h 3h Js] [2c]
Juniorsdaddy bets $3.60
bi11 frist1 calls $3.60
*** RIVER *** [7h 3h Js 2c] [8d]
Juniorsdaddy bets $10.80
bi11 frist1 calls $10.80
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Juniorsdaddy shows [Jd As] a pair of Jacks
bi11 frist1 shows [Kh Kc] a pair of Kings
bi11 frist1 wins the pot ($31.40) with a pair of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $32.40 | Rake $1
Board: [7h 3h Js 2c 8d]
Seat 2: Juniorsdaddy (small blind) showed [Jd As] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 3: bi11 frist1 (big blind) showed [Kh Kc] and won ($31.40) with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: JJ-Donks is sitting out
Seat 5: Rufus215 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: scrodlebot5000 (button) folded on the Flop

Unless you had a read that he's a super passive fish w premium hands (really surprised he didn't shove river), you're not getting away from this one. Take a note on him though, and definitely decrease bet sizing to 2/3 psb, maybe check/call TPTK on turn, when oop to him in future.

I think this is very hard to get away from. I would really be shocked at him having an overpair and not pushing it harder. However, i think sometimes when people just call the flop and turn bet...i get weary they arent on a draw, they have a set. Hmmm...but why wouldnt he raise you all in on the river? It is odd.

Well I haven't looked at the results yet. But as soon as you got called on that last bet, I can tell you you're smoked. You're repping so much more strength than what you actually have.

That's good if you're bluffing, but not when you have SD value. You're gonna be blowing people off most of their holdings with this sequence of bets, so if someone managed to call all those barrels, they have something really solid.

I don't mind firing the pot on the flop. That's standard enough, and people are pretty numb to cbets, so you'll still get plenty of value here.

The turn bet though, right there, as soon as you fire pot for that second time and get called again, you should be real worried about your hand at that point. I'd be checking the river hoping for showdown.

I like a smaller bet size here, you don't have to fire away, because you're going to end up with this giant pot while holding a weak hand.

And then the third barrel, I mean, dear god. I'm a little surprised kings managed to find a call there. Without stats on you, (basically assuming an unknown) I'm seriously considering laying down to that river bet. At that point I have to give you credit for a big pair, JJ+. JJ hit a set, QQ I'm ahead of, AA I'm getting smoked by.

This is really just a prime example of small hand/small pot, big hand/big pot. Once the pot gets bloated, crazy things can end up happening.

Mase31683 said:

I don't mind firing the pot on the flop. That's standard enough, and people are pretty numb to cbets, so you'll still get plenty of value here.

The turn bet though, right there, as soon as you fire pot for that second time and get called again, you should be real worried about your hand at that point. I'd be checking the river hoping for showdown.

I like a smaller bet size here, you don't have to fire away, because you're going to end up with this giant pot while holding a weak hand.

And then the third barrel, I mean, dear god. I'm a little surprised kings managed to find a call there. Without stats on you, (basically assuming an unknown) I'm seriously considering laying down to that river bet. At that point I have to give you credit for a big pair, JJ+. JJ hit a set, QQ I'm ahead of, AA I'm getting smoked by.

This is really just a prime example of small hand/small pot, big hand/big pot. Once the pot gets bloated, crazy things can end up happening.

Click to expand...

I understand what youre saying. When he called the turn, I put him on the heart draw or J with a lower kicker. Since he never raised the pot, over pair or two pairs never entered my mind. He definitely threw me with his play, especially the call on the turn. I probably still would bet on the river, since I had led out every hand anyways. But, the bet would be much smaller, probably about half the size of the pot.

slycbnew said:

Unless you had a read that he's a super passive fish w premium hands (really surprised he didn't shove river), you're not getting away from this one. Take a note on him though, and definitely decrease bet sizing to 2/3 psb, maybe check/call TPTK on turn, when oop to him in future.

Click to expand...

+1
Do you have any reads/stats on this guy?

Do you know if he will call you down here with KJ or QJ?
Will the average 10NL player call you down here with KJ or QJ?

If the answer is yes you played well and were coolered.
If the answer is no go for pot control in future, make your bet sizes smaller and consider checking/calling the turn and river.

Juniorsdaddy said:

I understand what youre saying. When he called the turn, I put him on the heart draw or J with a lower kicker. Since he never raised the pot, over pair or two pairs never entered my mind. He definitely threw me with his play, especially the call on the turn. I probably still would bet on the river, since I had led out every hand anyways. But, the bet would be much smaller, probably about half the size of the pot.

Click to expand...

That dosent make any sense.

If you figured (after the turn) that he was on a heart or a lesser jack (which is entirely reasonable to think) why do you then proceed to put in a bet so large that none of these hands could call it?

I don't think you were thinking that at the time.. I think you were thinking, "I have a hand and betting is fun!.. he cant see that jack on the board, he thinks I'm bluffing...."

If he has a busted draw then he might bluff reraise, or if he has a lower jack he might call for value, but your river shove cant really get called by anything you beat so why did you do it, when you state that you put him on a draw or a lower jack?

Personally I would have bet half pot on the turn and 1/3 pot on the river (for value against lesser jacks and some PP's)

Deco said:

+1
Do you have any reads/stats on this guy?

Do you know if he will call you down here with KJ or QJ?
Will the average 10NL player call you down here with KJ or QJ?

If the answer is yes you played well and were coolered.
If the answer is no go for pot control in future, make your bet sizes smaller and consider checking/calling the turn and river.

Click to expand...

The average 10NL player will call you down with those hands, but not against that kind of raise, KJ maybe Sets YES Higher weird played PP's YES

so thats 1 hand that calls that you beat and say 6 that beat you that will call, a bet of this size.

Replay the hand with smaller bets and you start getting a lot more hands that you beat seeing the showdown with you

generally i dont think you want to be betting pot on several streets oop...
i also find that tptk nevers is worthy of betting on all streets, definately not oop.... also the river bet doesnt make any sense to me cause you only get callled by hands that have you beat

Stu_Ungar said:

The average 10NL player will call you down with those hands, but not against that kind of raise, KJ maybe Sets YES Higher weird played PP's YES

so thats 1 hand that calls that you beat and say 6 that beat you that will call, a bet of this size.

Replay the hand with smaller bets and you start getting a lot more hands that you beat seeing the showdown with you

Click to expand...

completely agree, you can;t get away with potting every street even at 10NL

Stu_Ungar said:

Personally I would have bet half pot on the turn and 1/3 pot on the river (for value against lesser jacks and some PP's)

Click to expand...

I'm a huge fan of this line. Potting the flop, 1/2pot turn, 1/3-1/2pot river.

My opinion whould be to check the flop actually, since the only draw is the flush, with the intention of betting the turn and river.

If I was to bet the flop, I would try to check the turn so that middle pairs might call a river bet.

Regardless, I think we all agree that the pot was too big for the hand. If you had tried to check the flop or turn, when your opponent bets he is defining his hand strength and it might have helped you get away from this.

Just a general rule I made up: 90% of the time Top Pair is a 2 street hand.

I dont hate it, this hand is fine imo. I will bet smaller on the river though

Thanks for all the info. I obviously need some lessons on strategic betting. Any articles or CC threads anyone recommends?

Juniorsdaddy said:

Thanks for all the info. I obviously need some lessons on strategic betting. Any articles or CC threads anyone recommends?

Click to expand...

THe best thing to read, I would suggest is "Professional No-Limit Holdem" by ed miller.

That deals with SPR. which is useful.

Other than that just think like this. Your hand is going to win at showdown a lot (Its a good hand) and there are draws which could chase. However it wont win if the bets are so big that they scare of weak hands (your hand is good.. it beats all weak hands, but its not great, it dosnt beat 2p pair, sets etc.)

So at each point in the hand you have to asign a range and have a plan.

So with this hand, the range you asign the opponent is all the hands he could likely have (some of these beat you... thats fine) but as the bet size increases, the number of weaker hands in that range decreases, so the bigger the pot, the less likely your hand is good.

So your plan should be to aim for a medium sized pot, with more money going in on the flop and turn than the river (because on the river you cannot expect many of the drawing hands to call.. they all bricked so the range of calling hands radically drops on the river.. so that has to be a veryu small bet for value .. basically low pairs and weak jacks have to feel that they should call this bet).

When you bet big here, they just fold, they put you on something strong. So the only hands that can call this bet are very strong hands.

Thats the jist of it.

I took your advice and thought I would practice some strategic betting today, and what do you know:

Full Tilt poker game #15397804655: Table Height (deep) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 12:19:56 ET - 2009/10/17
Seat 1: Juniorsdaddy ($28.15)
Seat 2: Jay1978 ($14.72)
Seat 3: urretxu ($68.88)
Seat 4: BeatingPokerCom ($87.21)
Seat 5: zendera ($62.02)
Seat 6: halfpint1263 ($12.05)
Seat 7: willyskiper ($29.60)
Seat 8: poker2k8 ($25)
Seat 9: mule23 ($25.79)
willyskiper posts the small blind of $0.10
poker2k8 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Juniorsdaddy [Ac Qc]
mule23 folds
Juniorsdaddy calls $0.25
Jay1978 folds
urretxu folds
BeatingPokerCom has 15 seconds left to act
BeatingPokerCom raises to $0.75
zendera folds
halfpint1263 calls $0.75
willyskiper folds
poker2k8 has 15 seconds left to act
poker2k8 folds
poker2k8 adds $0.25
Juniorsdaddy calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [7d 2s Qh]
Juniorsdaddy checks
BeatingPokerCom checks
halfpint1263 checks
*** TURN *** [7d 2s Qh] [5s]
Juniorsdaddy bets $1.50
BeatingPokerCom calls $1.50
halfpint1263 folds
*** RIVER *** [7d 2s Qh 5s] [4d]
Juniorsdaddy bets $2.50
BeatingPokerCom has 15 seconds left to act
BeatingPokerCom calls $2.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Juniorsdaddy shows [Ac Qc] a pair of Queens
BeatingPokerCom shows [Kc Kd] a pair of Kings
BeatingPokerCom wins the pot ($10.07) with a pair of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.60 | Rake $0.53
Board: [7d 2s Qh 5s 4d]
Seat 1: Juniorsdaddy showed [Ac Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 2: Jay1978 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: urretxu didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: BeatingPokerCom showed [Kc Kd] and won ($10.07) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: zendera didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: halfpint1263 (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 7: willyskiper (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: poker2k8 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: mule23 didn't bet (folded)

Something told me he had kings when he called on the turn. Same result, but a much smaller hit on the bankroll.

PF raise 4BB and fold to a reraise.

Flop, bet half pot here, he thinks he is slow playing KK (and he is) but really he could have TT this is a flop to c-bet (half pot). There isnt much he can have here but I think you have to be it.

Turn, THe 5 changes nothing here, I think this is a good street to check, because I think we are klooking to get value form weaker Queens and low PP.

River The 4 dosent really change anything especially if you bet the flop. So bet half pot here too.


I would have been playing for a slightly smaller pot and betting the flop 100%, the turn I would bet against a calling station but a better player might fold here or do something wierd because we are repping a queen and there are just no real draws he can have so long as we bet that flop.

River, yeah 2 pair is unlikely, sets would tend to have bet all 3 streets.

He thinks he got value but the money went in on your terms and you are beginning to build pots that you are likely to be ahead of.

Lots of hands can call these smaller bets and so you win more often than if you bloat the pot with a small hand and then you only get calls from better hands.

Also its hard to do but if he seems tight and passive (which he is playing a hand like this with KK) then dont get tempted to call min raises especially on the river.. he only ever does this for value and with the Q out there there is a very outside chance he does this with KQ, but more often than not he does this with a big hand (he isnt bluffing thats why the bet is small, he wants you to call it)

All I can say is you got set up by full tilt. And as you know that happen a lot on full tilt poker. At least you can read like god to dodge those

mistuhandy said:

All I can say is you got set up by full tilt. And as you know that happen a lot on full tilt poker. At least you can read like god to dodge those

Click to expand...

Yeah those situations never come up in live poker- people NEVER get dealt AQ when the other guy has KK and then hit a Q on the flop. Totally unbelievable. I mean the odds have to be astronomical, right?

edit- pardon me being a jerk, I'm just pretty tired of the online poker is rigged thing-