$10 NLHE 6-max: $ : $ : TPTK 4bet pot rather dangerous flop 3 barreling AI

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braveslice

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Hello, a line check.

I felt the line was forced, even though I could not see any worse hands to call anymore.

Villain 3rd hand, given no previous hands he can’t be too regular on the level.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
SB: 24.1 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 102 BB (VPIP: 20.13, PFR: 14.77, 3Bet Preflop: 1.96, Hands: 153)
UTG: 267.7 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
Hero (MP): 167.7 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A K

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 22.5 BB, BTN calls 13.5 BB

Flop: (46.5 BB, 2 players) 9 K Q
Hero bets 21.4 BB, BTN calls 21.4 BB

Turn: (89.3 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero bets 123.8 BB and is all-in (Villain 56bb behind)
 
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blast126

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Villain call a big bet preflop, he can have KK, QQ or AA, you are behind, if I'm right. What does he have? Is my range right?
 
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KFlint

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Villain call a big bet preflop, he can have KK, QQ or AA, you are behind, if I'm right. What does he have? Is my range right?

I lost a quite similar hand yesterday, the guy called my 4-bet from UTG-1 with pocket 88 and flopped set, some people are monkeys, without history it's not easy to put them on a range but yeah that should be QQ+ here.

Anyway, the money goes in no matter what, perhaps check call would make him bet an AQ type hand or god knows what if he is bad.
 
Keith_MM

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Villain call a big bet preflop, he can have KK, QQ or AA, you are behind, if I'm right. What does he have? Is my range right?
KK,QQ AA are likely to have got it in preflop rather than calling the 4bet, probably had some suited connectors like TJs,QJs,KQsand maybe TT JJ. wouldn't have thought he'd have the 99 to give a set though as overcards are likely to flop.
 
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braveslice

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When he flats 4bet (this apply only to NL10 zoom in pokerstars), I wait KK and AA sometimes.

His default range should be JJ-QQ, AK

If he is wild add TT, AQs, KQs, and some more suited stuff like Keith suggested.

Very bad players call Ax, some like to call any pair (even regs).

Here villain had AsTs.

, perhaps check call would make him bet an AQ
I almost like this more, but if he checks the turn, scary card comes and he bets the river I cry.
 
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KFlint

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He called the shove with the gutshot then? Wow
 
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braveslice

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He had gut + flush draw OTT, he had 27.3% against my hand, I asked ~28%

Actually only reason I feel he was still in OTT was my small CB. I was kinda interested too if someone would say something about the size of cb too.
 
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KFlint

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Oh I missed the suited part.

I don't see anything wrong with this hand, some people CB smaller, 1/3 pot, in 4-Bet pot. The stack still goes in easily on the turn (pot size) if the board becomes dangerous. I prefer near 1/2 pot like you did because of board texture. Bet bigger and you lose him on this flop I think.
 
Figaroo2

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When I'm oop in a 4bet pot with AK 100bb deep where I have been flatted my default position is to shove just about all flops.
 
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KFlint

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Shoving if you missed the flop against someone you most likely have limited reads on (zoom) seems like burning money. Ranges are stronger as a whole imo. Could be wrong...
 
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braveslice

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When I'm oop in a 4bet pot with AK 100bb deep where I have been flatted my default position is to shove just about all flops.

Do you have any stats how you do with it? What is fold%?

You get called by any draw, any over pair, any top pair, sometimes 2ndP, sometimes second pocket pair?
 
Figaroo2

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talked about this recently in Aces2 thread.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...y-limit-cash-journal-302277/post-3785089.html
I'm finding fishy players will call 4bets pretty wide in position, so don't assume you are only up against TT-QQ AK

If you have 99 TT JJ and have flatted a 4bet and the board comes 278 and the 4bettor shoves you really need some sort of read that the 4bettor shoves AK before you can be comfortable calling.
As mentioned above I had one guy flash JJ at me and fold on an undercard flop when he was a 3-1 fav thinking I had QQ-AA.
 
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KFlint

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I just made I bunch of calculations based on this post :

http://www.deucescracked.com/forums/8-Micro-Stakes-Online-NL/topics/119021-25NL-4bet-pot-AK-missed-f


There were some mistakes but it's a -ev shove on a 1 dangerous card (T,J or Q) if a villain is a good player and is never there with ak and know you never shove AA, KK (gets better if you do it)
If villain is a bad player you are roughly neutral ev assuming he folds the ak he has to a shove on flop.

On a 2 bad cards flop it's very -ev in both case.

I did it quickly, hope there is no mistakes but I put 4 combos of ak that would fold to a flop shove in each case and the QQ-JJ-TT combo that would call the shove, starting with the same pre flop action in the link above. Hope you find it interesting!

(he folds) + (he calls and you win) - (he calls and you lose) = EV

AK on QJ8r flop

([4/16] * 14.25) + ([12/16] * [{18.05 + 14.25} * equity]) - ([12/16] * [{18.05} * (1-equity)]) = EV

(.25 * 14.25) + (.75 * [32.30 * equity]) - (.75 * [18.05 * (1-equity)]) = EV

(.25 * 14.25) + (.75 * [32.30 * 0.21061]) - (.75 * [18.05 * (.79)]) = EV

$3.5625 + $5,10- $10,70 =-2.04

-------------------------------------

AK on t82r flop

([4/19] * 14.25) + ([15/19] * [{18.05 + 14.25} * equity]) - ([15/19] * [{18.05} * (1-equity)]) = EV

(.21052632 * 14.25) + (.7894 * [32.30 * equity]) - (.7894 * [18.05 * (1-equity)]) = EV

(.21052632 * 14.25) + (.7894 * [32.30 * .26177]) - (.7894 * [18.05 * (.73823)]) = EV


$3.00 + $6,67- $10,52 =-0,85
 
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KFlint

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More complicated than that after giving second thoughts, especially since you are folding TT on QJ8 board probably... it could be a small book when you look at all the scenarios ;) Poker is not simple...
 
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