$10 NLHE 6-max: TPSK facing donk on monotone flop (3Bet pot)

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ScottishMatt

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PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): $11.65
SB: $19.10 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 2)
BB: $10.73 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
UTG: $10.05 (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 66.67, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
MP: $7.86
CO: $7.24 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 100.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q:heart: A:heart:

fold, fold, CO raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, fold, fold, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95, 2 players) 8:diamond: 7:diamond: Q:diamond:
CO bets $0.80, Hero raises to $10.75 and is all-in, CO calls $5.54 and is all-in

Turn: ($14.63, 2 players) 8:spade:

River: ($14.63, 2 players) 4:spade:

Shoving best yeah?
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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What are we getting called by ever? Aside from like QxJd, QxKd...
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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You really think it matters if he's a fish here? What else does he call with that we're ahead of? T9 or 65 with no diamond? I kind of doubt it. 9d8x? Probably not. Realistically the only things worse we should get called by are QxXd, and even if we're getting called by something like Qx9d here this is probably thin.

If he showed up with like 75o no diamond here then cheers, but we can't really count on him snap-getting it in with worse than what I said above I don't think. Also, that's all assuming that the donk-sizing tell is 100% reliable in saying he's a fish, which I don't think it is. I'm guessing it's somewhere between 50-80% reliable, and frankly it's sometimes going to be a non-fish bombing it with a mid-strength flush, 2 pair, or sets.
 
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ScottishMatt

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So call and re-eval both flop + turn?
 
Matt Vaughan

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Agh so I screwed up in looking at his sizing. Somehow I looked at preflop :eek: I think I still raise, but I'm not jamming.
 
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ScottishMatt

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So we raise/call, or raise/fold?

Assume we jam any non-diamond turn as well right?
 
Matt Vaughan

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I mean it's def not an ideal spot, but I THINK I'm raise/folding, then jamming blank turn cards.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I Will offer my input as well.

I think a raise of 3x donk bet would be better. If you ship it here, made flushes are going to show up a lot.

But that donk-bet sizing does look like villain is trying to set his own price.

If you raise 3x, and he ships, we can get away perhaps. If he just calls, and checks to a brick on the turn, we can apply some pressure and further define villains range.

I don't know if my advice is good or not. I just wanted to contribute my thoughts.

Hope it helps.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Yeah thanks Bean, and you too Scourrge. I agree raise/folding is probably ideal here. he is probably too dumb to donk/call with a made flush. At the time though I just though I can't raise/fold here because I would be getting absurdly good odds.

The consensus is that he can donk/call worse but never donk/raise a Q or made flush here?
 
Matt Vaughan

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Exactly (imo).
 
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ScottishMatt

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I meant donk/raise a FD. I assume you agree with that?
 
Matt Vaughan

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baudib1

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i see no reason to raise the flop whatsoever. i think it's horrible really.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Explain. Or elaborate. If you call something horrible you need to explain why, otherwise we just feel condescended on and don't learn :p
 
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baudib1

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big hand = big pot
small hand = small pot

1-pair hands on a monotone board with no redraw is a pretty small hand. Building a big pot here isn't going to be profitable especially when we're essentially drawing dead to his value range AND we are going to have to give up on so so many runouts. Raise-folding seems even worse than shoving because we let him reshove all of his semibluffs.
 
Yoshimiii

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Raise flop, he's a fish. Whatever you do, don't raise/fold, it's pretty horrible since you are priced in and he can show up with worse. I would be alot more scared of an X/R than a half-pot donk raise.
 
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Yoshimiii

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big hand = big pot
small hand = small pot

1-pair hands on a monotone board with no redraw is a pretty small hand. Building a big pot here isn't going to be profitable especially when we're essentially drawing dead to his value range AND we are going to have to give up on so so many runouts. Raise-folding seems even worse than shoving because we let him reshove all of his semibluffs.

3 bet pot vs a short-stacked fish, TPTK is a strong hand, even if it is one tone.
 
Yoshimiii

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so if he's bluffing or value-betting worse let him continue

Rather just raise the flop to make all draws pay and he will stack off QX, if we just call and bad turn he won't stack off QX. Also folds his equity out or makes him pay.

I'd also expect most/all pairs with a diamond, e.g. 10x10d to call a raise.

Doubt he's just airballing with nothing here.
 
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ScottishMatt

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What he said ^

I don't think he ever has nothing here. I want to be charging him surely, letting him set the price and giving himself absurdly good odds is the correct play?

He also ain't folding a Q so we get plenty of value from that portion of his range IMO.
 
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baudib1

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Rather just raise the flop to make all draws pay and he will stack off QX, if we just call and bad turn he won't stack off QX. Also folds his equity out or makes him pay.

I'd also expect most/all pairs with a diamond, e.g. 10x10d to call a raise.

Doubt he's just airballing with nothing here.

Of course he's not airballing with nothing but this is a spot we're either drawing dead or barely ahead. We're flipping with any Kd hand.

Letting him set the price is perfectly fine. If he has nothing and checks the turn we can obviously get value. If he had checked I'm not really happy with betting much more than that when it pot commits us on a really bad board. The concept of "charging" when both players have equal equity is somewhat absurd.

It's sometimes hard to believe but it really doesn't matter if he bets it or if we bet it - money is going in
 
Matt Vaughan

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Tbf his flop sizing looks like he's trying to price himself in, so I don't really see how raising and not letting him do that is bad. Raise/gii might be better, but I doubt he's bet/jamming his semibluffs unless we screw up our raise size?

Edit, just saw baud's new post: And we don't really have equal equity unless he has exactly a KdXx type hand. He still can have AdXx in just as many combos.
 
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baudib1

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Edit, just saw baud's new post: And we don't really have equal equity unless he has exactly a KdXx type hand. He still can have AdXx in just as many combos.

and flopped flushes and sets
 
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