$10 NLHE 6-max: TP IP vs fishy..... am I value betting myself???

fletchdad

fletchdad

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Lately I am giving money in these spots and am trying to be more selective. I think this is a guy who will come along with Axs and paired the flop, QJs, JTs, perhaps any PP QQ and lower although I think he would have raised QQ-JJ and maybe TT pre, He seems like a calling station but only 19 hands..?? I actually expected a re raise or fold pre..... He had one good hand and played it real straight forward agro so far

So, who am I value betting here, and what do I do OTR, AND should my turn bet have been sized different? I am asking cause AK or a set will want me to size myself in, and I guess I am getting paranoid about being trapped....

poker stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1704214
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $9.39 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 9, 3B: 3, AF: 2.2, Hands: 1119
SB: $20.59 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 14, 3B: 7, AF: 3.8, Hands: 112
Hero (BB): $10.00 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 2.5, Hands: 200590
UTG: $10.68 - VPIP: 57, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.2, Hands: 21
MP: $11.06 - VPIP: 18, PFR: 11, 3B: 2, AF: 1.0, Hands: 1800
CO: $11.29 - VPIP: 58, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 2.0, Hands: 19

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with Q :diamond: K :club:
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, 1 fold, CO calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) 9 :club: K :spade: 5 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.00, CO calls $1

Turn: ($3.95) 4 :spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.60, CO calls $1.60

River: ($7.15) 7 :heart: (2 players)
Hero?
 
bgomez89

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i'd bet about tree fiddy
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Bigger on the turn, ship them nickels. I might flat preflop though.
 
Deco

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Bigger on the turn. Ship river.

I know the stacks are small enough we can ship the river anyway but a smaller river ship is easier to call than a larger one and makes us more money than our turn bet. I'd only bet less than half stack if the stacks sizes left are miniscule. That and there could be a few draws knocking about.

I'm being petty like it's no big deal.
 
jbbb

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What do people think about preflop?
His raising range is pretty tight at 11%, and I think it'd probably be even tighter if there was a previous limper. Fish tend to limp behind more often than isolate.

River is a clear bet IMO but no too big. $3.50 actually sounds about right :)
 
WVHillbilly

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What was your reasoning for the 3bet preflop?
 
Deco

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What do people think about preflop?

Preflops fine imo.
I 3bet for value. 11% is a little tight to do this but no-one has opened, he is in late position and we're not converged yet to take the 11% to seriously.

That and vs fish we can't simply look at mere equity as we make so much money postflop when we hit one of our two strong pairs. A2o or the likes only beats us if we were to get all the money in pre.
 
flatcaller

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yeah 3 bet pre is understandable if you know your opponent but in this situation i feel it can be getting you in a lot of trouble. i would just call here but play a few more orbits and analyze the table maybe 3bet is a good play but from what you know just flat pre. Flop bet turn bet river decide what you think is best u have position. I feel safe with you QJs thoughts, that what initially thougth as well.
 
WVHillbilly

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Preflops fine imo.
I 3bet for value. 11% is a little tight to do this but no-one has opened, he is in late position and we're not converged yet to take the 11% to seriously.

That and vs fish we can't simply look at mere equity as we make so much money postflop when we hit one of our two strong pairs. A2o or the likes only beats us if we were to get all the money in pre.
The reason I ask is because villain has iso'd an EP limper and passive types in general are more apt to limp along than to raise limpers unless they have what they consider a big hand. Not sure I really like the 3bet but wanted to hear FD's reason for it.
 
Deco

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The reason I ask is because villain has iso'd an EP limper

Didn't notice that tbh. Defo makes it closer. I think it's personal preference at this point. 3betting is defo taking a risk that villains pfr could be stupidly small for the sake of value towning a confirmed fish.

Personally I'm still going to risk it and be looking to get stacks in when I hit toppair.
 
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firstly 3betting is incorrect as ur gtd to be oop post flop and kqo is hard to be able to extract value with as kjo- is probs heading to the muck, id fold imo, as for leading flop is ok but vill calling is alarming and im checking turn and maybe calling turn but c/c c/f river as no worse hand will call cept 1010-QQ but 3 streets? and worse shouldve folded by now. As for betting river if vill has a set or AA and shoves im gunna be crying calling/ spew folding. Id Just fold or call pre as 3betting light oop at these stakes often plays in favour of fish imo.
 
Deco

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firstly 3betting is incorrect as ur gtd to be oop post flop and kqo is hard to be able to extract value with as kjo- is probs heading to the muck,

KJ/KT/K9/QT/QJ/Q9/56s are calling all day long if their within villains range as he's a huge fish. What others are correctly pointing out is that many of these hands may not be in his range in the first place as we've such low convergence on his already small PFR% and he raised after a limp further tightening his range.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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What was your reasoning for the 3bet preflop?


TBO not sure anymore. To take it down, to get 2 fish 2 call and hit a miracle and stack em,, I have been working on either raising or folding - its my calling that gets me into most trouble - and it was probably this mindset that led me more than anything.

But, as I said, on review, not sure what my reason was, prolly just to be agro, so not a great reason.....

I need to work on my ranges, and that was where my main problem is here. raising not cause of range, but just to raise...... I started thinking about range way to late...

Still, I was there so needed to do something....
 
WVHillbilly

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Playing raise or fold, especially OOP, is fine but here I think I'd rather be folding than raising. Villain isoing the limper pushes it that way imo. I think you can probably call preflop profitably against this type of player who is unlikely to put on a ton of pressure postflop but if you're uncomfortable doing that I think folding is the way to go. So calling>folding>3betting imo.

As played do you have any idea what type of range he might bet if checked to on the river?
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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As played do you have any idea what type of range he might bet if checked to on the river?


See, that there lies the whole crux of this hand for me. I bet mindlessly, and then when he called, I started putting him on ranges, but with bias.. Had I planned for a call - or planned period - and post flop play, I would be fine here, as I think this flop with this player is a good situation to value bet. But, since I was like "Oh shit, he called pre and called the flop, he has A5, he has AK the station, he has 55...." whereas if I has planned this pre, he is calling with Ax x=Q-T, TT-22 (?), QJs- Q9o, KQsKjo, ca stuff like this and I am happy to bet bigger OTT and shove river as played. But in the hand OTT I got gunshy, which is a direct result of playing unthinkingly pre. When i look at this now I am, "bigger turn, shove river" as well as "DONT BET W/O A REASON"

So My thinking about range started when I was too involved to think clearly about range, if you see what I mean....
 
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crazyg123

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KJ/KT/K9/QT/QJ/Q9/56s are calling all day long if their within villains range as he's a huge fish. What others are correctly pointing out is that many of these hands may not be in his range in the first place as we've such low convergence on his already small PFR% and he raised after a limp further tightening his range.
I am new to this forum business and dont want to argue with anybody. But i dont think reading a fish after 19 hands is effective and would rather play abc vs vill as we probly have little to no post flop info. Also villain may not be a fish as he is trying to islolate a limper from UTG with position. The call pre also supports the low pp set idea so imo its time to slow down.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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I am new to this forum business and dont want to argue with anybody. But i dont think reading a fish after 19 hands is effective and would rather play abc vs vill as we probly have little to no post flop info. Also villain may not be a fish as he is trying to islolate a limper from UTG with position. The call pre also supports the low pp set idea so imo its time to slow down.


While there is a lot of truth in what you say, it is not only the 19 hands, but how he played them. I was indeed cautious here, but that was mainly my fault for how I played this hand. Had I had a better idea of what I wanted to do postflop, I think this can be a profitable situation. Is is indeed too small of a sample to make conclusions, but fish are fish from the start, and when it looks like a fish, acts like a fish, then is is possibly.... well, you get my point...;)

But I do agree with what you are saying generally.
 
B

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I think calling or 3-betting are fine. While realizing this guy may not be 4-betting AK, surely he's not flatting AA/KK so being afraid of a fish's calling range (and he is 100% a fish) is just MUBS.

Postflop is pretty much a basic bet-bet-bet until you get raised spot.
 
Deco

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But i dont think reading a fish after 19 hands is effective and would rather play abc vs vill as we probly have little to no post flop info. Also villain may not be a fish as he is trying to islolate a limper from UTG with position. The call pre also supports the low pp set idea so imo its time to slow down.

19 hands is enough when his stats are that extreme. Not enough to tell us he's a 58vpip sure but enough to tell us he's a fish.

If his stats were 30/19 I'd say we need more hands before assuming his fishiness.

I am new to this forum business and dont want to argue with anybody.

Arguing is why I log on every morning ;)
Whole point in forums imo :p
 
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