$10 NLHE 6-max: Thin value with flush? Double paired board.

B

braveslice

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22/15/1.5

Villain 47 hands, hard to asses because vpip=14=PRF and those are rare. 4bet (1) AKs.

He can still call JJ+, A high, flush.

Q1: Was river bet valid? Now I have hard time to see if I betted for value or as a bluff.
Q2: Bet turn, check river better line?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 97 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 47)
BB: 108.7 BB (VPIP: 24.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 27)
Hero (UTG): 182 BB
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 28.26, PFR: 23.91, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 49)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.68, PFR: 12.97, 3Bet Preflop: 1.67, Hands: 191)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: 6:diamond:

Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 4:spade: 4:diamond: T:diamond:
SB checks, Hero bets 3.8 BB, SB calls 3.8 BB

Turn: (14.6 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond:
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (14.6 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
SB checks, Hero bets 4.9 BB
 
John A

John A

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Bet the turn 100%, but not big. That turn is a blank. If they called that flop, you can get value from a lot of hands or possibly induce a bluff. Bet ~5-6BBs on the turn.

River bet is fine. You want calls from small pairs and Ax. So ~6BBs is good.
 
B

braveslice

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Bet the turn 100%, but not big. That turn is a blank. If they called that flop, you can get value from a lot of hands or possibly induce a bluff

Yes roger that.
 
Diegol

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Well he could have some worse flush with suited connectors i think if he had a good pair the standard is to 3bet preflop, in the turn i think hou should bet, but the river got you the worse card of the deck, the 10 impact a lot in his range of hands fromthe small blind
 
Sil3ntness

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Bet the turn and check the river.
 
S

SafetyMark

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I disagree with every aspect of the play, regardless of the outcome. Unless you thought you were bluffing the river (as opposed to thin value) you're only winning at showdown by hero calls. While this seems to be a pretty standard line from the "current school," particularly online, I think it is terrible.

If ANY player does an honest analysis of their play in a cash game, no matter the forum, chasing flushes on paired boards should be a red flag, at a minimum, and a leak at worst. (Double paired, obviously being even worse)
 
Q

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The way you played it is fine. If sb bets river, you should only call. But when he checks, it's a safe bet. You can size it up more if you want but I like your sizing. If opponent raises, then you have to might have to fold if you think he checks twice.
 
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braveslice

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Yes, the problem with these small bets is that sometimes one needs to defend a bit more liberally than normally against raises. He insta folded, maybe 2 over cards.
 
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SafetyMark

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The way you played it is fine. If sb bets river, you should only call. But when he checks, it's a safe bet. You can size it up more if you want but I like your sizing. If opponent raises, then you have to might have to fold if you think he checks twice.

Just for the record, I'm at least one person who disagrees with this completely.
 
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SafetyMark

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So check flop, fold turn?

Yeah, it's hard for us to answer when "put into" a situation that we'd really ever find ourselves in.

But, sure, I guess I'd check the flop and re-evaluate the turn, with fold a possibility but a call of a small OOP bet could have some merit. If bet again on the river, I'm not sure why you'd want to call.

But what hand that beats you bets the turn and the river? I'd guess only 1010 or 2x. Great hands for value on the river like 10A or any other 10x are more likely to check the turn, calling any smallish bet from you and looking for value on the river.

Point is, just because that isn't what you were up against this time doesn't mean going for thin value with nut flush on a double-paired board is a good long-term strategy.
 
Q

QA77

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Yeah, it's hard for us to answer when "put into" a situation that we'd really ever find ourselves in.

But, sure, I guess I'd check the flop and re-evaluate the turn, with fold a possibility but a call of a small OOP bet could have some merit. If bet again on the river, I'm not sure why you'd want to call.

But what hand that beats you bets the turn and the river? I'd guess only 1010 or 2x. Great hands for value on the river like 10A or any other 10x are more likely to check the turn, calling any smallish bet from you and looking for value on the river.

Point is, just because that isn't what you were up against this time doesn't mean going for thin value with nut flush on a double-paired board is a good long-term strategy.

Opponent checked twice, Im not sure why you are talking about folding. Opponent has pairs, flushes and a small chance of 10x when he checks twice. Why would you not go for value for a hand like 88 when they most likely call?
 
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SafetyMark

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Opponent checked twice, Im not sure why you are talking about folding. Opponent has pairs, flushes and a small chance of 10x when he checks twice. Why would you not go for value for a hand like 88 when they most likely call?

Betting for thin value with any flush on a double paired board is not only wrong (no matter the outcome, it is the action that matters) it is a losing long-term strategy... as I've already stated once if not more than once in this thread.

Why bother asking for opinions if people are going to shut down the correct one when it is presented?

Your final point is that you *should* be betting for value on this river, simply because it was checked twice, with you assuming you're always getting called by 88?? That sounds like about the easiest game in the world to not just beat but absolutely annihilate. You know, the kind of games spread all throughout Southern California.
 
Q

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Betting for thin value with any flush on a double paired board is not only wrong (no matter the outcome, it is the action that matters) it is a losing long-term strategy... as I've already stated once if not more than once in this thread.

Why bother asking for opinions if people are going to shut down the correct one when it is presented?

Your final point is that you *should* be betting for value on this river, simply because it was checked twice, with you assuming you're always getting called by 88?? That sounds like about the easiest game in the world to not just beat but absolutely annihilate. You know, the kind of games spread all throughout Southern California.

I like how you shut down opinions like yours is the correct one. Anyways, I only talk about this hand. All double pair board hands play out differently. Good luck to you.
 
D

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I think you have to bet small on the turn and call a x/raise on the turn.

Once the second 10 shows up making a double paired board. I think checking back for showdown is the right play.
 
No1eJoker

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Why didn't you bet on the turn??
 
A

Andrew Dee

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Hi braveslice
Q1: Was river bet valid? Now I have a hard time to see if I betted for value or as a bluff.
-Yes the river bet is valid, he can still call you with pocket pairs and occasionally with AQ AJ type hands.
-In this hand you definitely have 2 streets value but preferably the turn bet is better than the river bet.
Q2: Bet turn, check river better line?
-yes!
Good luck!
-Andrew Dee-
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