$10 NLHE 6-max: Snap call on the river?

B

benshouse99

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Hand Information
No Limit, 0.1 BB (6 handed).
Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

Table Information
Seat: 1 Player 1 ($3.64) Dealer
Seat: 2 Hero ($9.82) Small Blind
Seat: 4 Player 4 ($18.57) Big Blind
Seat: 6 Player 6 ($6.5)
Seat: 7 Player 7 ($16.59)
Seat: 9 Player 9 ($11.06)
Dealt to Hero
JH.png
QD.png


Preflop (Pot:0.15)
Player 6 FOLD
Player 7 RAISE $0.35
Player 9 FOLD
Player 1 FOLD
Hero CALL $0.3
Player 4 FOLD

Flop(Pot: $0.8)
QH.png
6S.png
8D.png


Hero CHECK
Player 7 BET $0.6
Hero CALL $0.6

Turn(Pot: $2)
QH.png
6S.png
8D.png
5S.png


Hero CHECK
Player 7 BET $1.5
Hero CALL $1.5

River(Pot: $5)
QH.png
6S.png
8D.png
5S.png
4D.png


Hero CHECK
Player 7 BET $2.7



Scary river, surely he's not value betting TPTK, and unlikely has Q7. so is this just a snap call? But at the same time, I'm only ever beating a bluff surely, and I have no reads on Villain. Also, on turn, when board becomes more draw heavy, spot for a c-raise to protect my hand? Any advice much appreciated thanks :)
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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i think you played it well.
 
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nutzpayz

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Would fold river. QQ/55-88 are all in villains range. I think pre is where the mistake is. QJo in the sb vs a mp open from an unknown. Think this is why you are in such a tough spot.
 
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swingro

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The play is as bad as it could be. Calling OOP with QJo. It does not matter what kind of a player he is. Flatting QJo from SB is always bad.
3-betting is not the case against a player that opens from MP.
Fold is the best solution.
So you are on the flop with a dominated hand and check/call all way to the river. All the regulars are table selecting for villains like you. Loose passive players.
 
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Tiltt2424

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swingro said:
The play is as bad as it could be. Calling OOP with QJo. It does not matter what kind of a player he is. Flatting QJo from SB is always bad.
3-betting is not the case against a player that opens from MP.
Fold is the best solution.
So you are on the flop with a dominated hand and check/call all way to the river. All the regulars are table selecting for villains like you. Loose passive players.
Click to expand...
Agreeeeeeeeeeeeee!
 
Jblocher1

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I'm actually ok with calling pre. Just take a b/f line on flop IMO, when he just smooths then x/f turn, makes your life a lot easier. I don't think we should fold JQ vs. a MP unknown open, I also don't think we should 3 bet, as the only hands that call the 3 bet are hands that dominate us like KQ/AQ and probably medium pocket pairs, not to mention we can get 4 bet making it literally impossible for us to continue as his range has been polarized down to like QQ+/AK and we have less equity than every hand combo in that range.

As for folding pre.... I suppose that's fine his open range pre from MP is probably like all pocket pairs and hands that dominate us so on second thought.... Fold pre lol.

However.... As played.... B/f flop
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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fold pre>3bet pre>flat pre.

as played ,i dont mind check calling 3 streets versus unknown. I mean, i dont love it but board is good for a pot sized donk bet on the river!. Esp since you flatted pre

Flatting pre widens your range to just about anything, so on board like this,,,, OVER-PAIRS FOLD A LOT THE TIME. Thats one of the merits of flatting. You can rep whatever you want, especially if villains range is polarised to premiums.
 
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benshouse99

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swingro said:
The play is as bad as it could be. Calling OOP with QJo. It does not matter what kind of a player he is. Flatting QJo from SB is always bad.
3-betting is not the case against a player that opens from MP.
Fold is the best solution.
So you are on the flop with a dominated hand and check/call all way to the river. All the regulars are table selecting for villains like you. Loose passive players.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your response.

I see your point, there is that high risk of domination. If it was QJ suited, could a call be argued for? Or is your stance that you should never flat call a raise in the sb?

Also, it's 6-handed, so we can't give that much credit to a MP raiser surely? So would 3-betting pre have been the best line?
 
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benshouse99

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Jblocher1 said:
I'm actually ok with calling pre. Just take a b/f line on flop IMO, when he just smooths then x/f turn, makes your life a lot easier. I don't think we should fold JQ vs. a MP unknown open, I also don't think we should 3 bet, as the only hands that call the 3 bet are hands that dominate us like KQ/AQ and probably medium pocket pairs, not to mention we can get 4 bet making it literally impossible for us to continue as his range has been polarized down to like QQ+/AK and we have less equity than every hand combo in that range.

As for folding pre.... I suppose that's fine his open range pre from MP is probably like all pocket pairs and hands that dominate us so on second thought.... Fold pre lol.

However.... As played.... B/f flop
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response!

Is donking the flop like this dangerous though? Most of the time we'll only get called by better, we'll have to fold to a raise and x/f the turn. This means he could quite easily float the flop with worse and take down on turn. Once we donk flop surely we can't just give up, as by checking turn we basically surrender the pot, and give out a lot more info. In addition, by donking the flop, we surely loose value from weaker hands that may be inclined to c-bet because it's a relatively dry board (AKs, KJs, pocket pairs etc)?

By check-calling flop, does it not ensure that we get value then from weaker hands, and means that if villain continues on turn, then we can assume that most of the time he has us beat and we can fold?
 
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benshouse99

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vinylspiros said:
fold pre>3bet pre>flat pre.

as played ,i dont mind check calling 3 streets versus unknown. I mean, i dont love it but board is good for a pot sized donk bet on the river!. Esp since you flatted pre

Flatting pre widens your range to just about anything, so on board like this,,,, OVER-PAIRS FOLD A LOT THE TIME. Thats one of the merits of flatting. You can rep whatever you want, especially if villains range is polarised to premiums.
Click to expand...

cheers for your response!

I disagree with a pot sized donk bet on the river, as it seems very -EV. We're only getting called by better, folding out all the hands we beat with the sizing. True, we can get better hands to fold like overpairs, but this gain is outweighed by the possibility that we're called and beat. In addition, on this wet board, villain is most likely checking back all overpairs and hands we beat, so why not let our hand realise it's showdown value?
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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benshouse99 said:
cheers for your response!

I disagree with a pot sized donk bet on the river, as it seems very -EV. We're only getting called by better, folding out all the hands we beat with the sizing. True, we can get better hands to fold like overpairs, but this gain is outweighed by the possibility that we're called and beat. In addition, on this wet board, villain is most likely checking back all overpairs and hands we beat, so why not let our hand realise it's showdown value?
Click to expand...


OMG, i didnt mean in this particular hand. I meant if you just decided to flat and didnt hit. (at all) this would be a a nice board that hit your SB flatting range in relation to villains range.( so you could easily rep assuming you decided to float with overcards or smthng)


Taking into consideration the line you took, and the top pair you hit on flop, check calling is fine here IMO.
 
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swingro

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benshouse99 said:
Thanks for your response.

I see your point, there is that high risk of domination. If it was QJ suited, could a call be argued for? Or is your stance that you should never flat call a raise in the sb?

Also, it's 6-handed, so we can't give that much credit to a MP raiser surely? So would 3-betting pre have been the best line?
Click to expand...
There are some condisions to be meet when 3-betin,
You 3-bet as a bluff or for value.
1. As a bluff with a polarized range against someone that is folding a lot to 3-bets or is folding a lot postflop.
2. For value with AA,KK,QQ,AK for the obvious reason.
Both of the reasons are connected because the image created with the first one will help you win a lot of stacks with the second one.
When you are bluffing you want to be in the safest spot possible to not get in trouble postflop. That spot is when you have position against the villain. So when he raise from MP you want to be at CO or Button when you 3-bet as a bluff so you can play yhe rest of the hand IP. If you 3-bet from SB or BB you are playing the rest of the hand OOP.
For a lot of beginners the importance of position is something verry confusing. But imagine that you can control the flow of the hand beeing the second to act all the time. You have always the possibility to see what villain does. Suppose he raises from MP and you 3-bet from CO. He calls and he is the first to act. He checks , you c-bet a good flop to c-bet and he falls. Suppose he is not folding than you know that you are done with the hand and check to the river or fold saving a lot of money.
So if you play OOP would not you be interested in 3-betting mostly for value against early positions? Why put yourself in a bad situation from SB and BB against early positions when you can abuze the others from the Button and the CO. Because the hand looks nice?
 
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vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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swingro said:
There are some condisions to be meet when 3-betin,
You 3-bet as a bluff or for value.
1. As a bluff with a polarized range against someone that is folding a lot to 3-bets or is folding a lot postflop.
2. For value with AA,KK,QQ,AK for the obvious reason.
Both of the reasons are connected because the image created with the first one will help you win a lot of stacks with the second one.
When you are bluffing you want to be in the safest spot possible to not get in trouble postflop. That spot is when you have position against the villain. So when he raise from MP you want to be at CO or Button when you 3-bet as a bluff so you can play yhe rest of the hand IP. If you 3-bet from SB or MP you are playing the rest of the hand OOP.
For a lot of beginners the importance of position is something verry confusing. But imagine that you can control the flow of the hand beeing the second to act all the time. You have always the possibility to see what villain does. Suppose he raises from MP and you 3-bet from CO. He calls and he is the first to act. He checks , you c-bet a good flop to c-bet and he falls. Suppose he is not folding than you know that you are done with the hand and check to the river or fold saving a lot of money.
So if you play OOP would not you be interested in 3-betting mostly for value against early positions? Why put yourself in a bad situation from SB and BB against early positions when you can abuze the others from the Button and the CO. Because the hand looks nice?
Click to expand...

+1. this is solid advice.
 
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benshouse99

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swingro said:
There are some condisions to be meet when 3-betin,
You 3-bet as a bluff or for value.
1. As a bluff with a polarized range against someone that is folding a lot to 3-bets or is folding a lot postflop.
2. For value with AA,KK,QQ,AK for the obvious reason.
Both of the reasons are connected because the image created with the first one will help you win a lot of stacks with the second one.
When you are bluffing you want to be in the safest spot possible to not get in trouble postflop. That spot is when you have position against the villain. So when he raise from MP you want to be at CO or Button when you 3-bet as a bluff so you can play yhe rest of the hand IP. If you 3-bet from SB or BB you are playing the rest of the hand OOP.
For a lot of beginners the importance of position is something verry confusing. But imagine that you can control the flow of the hand beeing the second to act all the time. You have always the possibility to see what villain does. Suppose he raises from MP and you 3-bet from CO. He calls and he is the first to act. He checks , you c-bet a good flop to c-bet and he falls. Suppose he is not folding than you know that you are done with the hand and check to the river or fold saving a lot of money.
So if you play OOP would not you be interested in 3-betting mostly for value against early positions? Why put yourself in a bad situation from SB and BB against early positions when you can abuze the others from the Button and the CO. Because the hand looks nice?
Click to expand...


You've explained it well thanks :). I play quite a lot but I still overlook poker fundamentals such as position. Next time, will stick to using and abusing my COs and Buttons!
 
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