$10 NLHE 6-max: Shoving OESFD on the turn

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tim132

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I actually lost this hand but I'm still really happy how I played it and after my session I reviewed the hand.

I knew I had a good draw and also fold equity but after looking at the pot odds I generated by shoving they came out at this.

pot odds :: $5.90/$14.90 = 2.5:1 or 29%

Drawing odds :: 15 outs = 2.1:1 or 32.25 %

Based on the math (if it's correct!), even though I lost the hand the play is +EV if I'm not mistaken. Sure I could have checked the turn and got a free card, but shoving for the extra $5.90 he has left behind surely has to be the correct play??

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($16.12)
SB ($10.05)
Villain (BB) ($10) - VPIP: 23, PFR: 19, 3B: 13, AF: 2.3, Hands: 669
UTG ($13.99)
MP ($7.60)
CO ($12.24)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8
diamond.gif
, 9
diamond.gif

2 folds, CO bets $0.35, Hero raises $0.95, 1 fold, Villain raises $2.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.35

Flop: ($5) 4
heart.gif
, 7
diamond.gif
, J
spade.gif
(2 players)
Villain bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80

Turn: ($8.60) 5
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Villain checks, Hero bets $12.02 (All-In), Villain calls $5.90 (All-In)

River: ($20.40) J
club.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $20.40
Results below:
Hero had 8
diamond.gif
, 9
diamond.gif
(one pair, Jacks).
Villain had K
club.gif
, K
diamond.gif
(two pair, Kings and Jacks).
Outcome: Villain won $19.38
 
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ScottishMatt

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Why are we flatting a 4-bet. Our 3-bet works as a bluff. You should only be 3-bet/calling at these stakes for value. Either 5-bet shove or fold with your hand.
 
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RamdeeBen

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imo, people don't 4bet bluff very often at these stakes pre..espically someone with those stats. He looks like a typical TAG player, who is only 4betting QQ+/A,K+

I don't mind the 3bet on the BTN, as when called, we're not dominated and can play quite straight forward on most flops + our hand plays really well post flop but as soon as he 4bets it's a snap fold, unless you're a lot deeper.
 
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tim132

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I don't usually call 4 bets tbh, I kind of disregarded the original raiser's raise and forgot the villain's raise was a 4 bet! I did think I could outplay the villain with the correct flop as 89s is pretty easy to play IP, plus this is an unusual play for me and the villain would know that.

Like I say I very rarely call 3/4 bets, I like to be the aggressor usually but it doesn't hurt to mix it up every now and then, well that's just my opinion but thanks for your comments.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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why are we 3b?

why are we flatting a 4b/

why are we flatting otf?

this is a losing play. You essentially got max equity on the turn and your still flipping at best...
 
Yoshimiii

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I don't usually call 4 bets tbh, I kind of disregarded the original raiser's raise and forgot the villain's raise was a 4 bet! I did think I could outplay the villain with the correct flop as 89s is pretty easy to play IP, plus this is an unusual play for me and the villain would know that.

Like I say I very rarely call 3/4 bets, I like to be the aggressor usually but it doesn't hurt to mix it up every now and then, well that's just my opinion but thanks for your comments.

Careful, Phil Ivey said something like this "I like it when people sit down and think they are better than me at poker, when I know they aren't". It's a lot easier to outplay you're opponent in a standard raised pot, definitely not 4 bet pot as he will be in fit/fold mode and the stack/pot ratio decreases the skill element.

I love the light 3 bet pre-flop, good fold equity and we are IP with a hand the plays great post-flop, a call is also good (depending on his fold to 3 bet stat, fold to c-bet stat). Hate it when you call the villains cold 4 bet (such a strong line by villain), hate the flop call and I hate the turn shove, he will fold very little once he knows that when he calls the flop he is likely pot committed and will call nearly any turn card, don't know why villain checks turn lol, that's bad.
 
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tim132

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I'm 3 betting to make the CO fold tbh.
flatted the 4 bet for reasons above
and I just floated the flop to see what he would do on the turn.

But hey, the general consensus seems to point at it being a poor play, looks like I was very wrong in my opinion. You guys obviously know more than me. All your opinions are welcomed and noted.
 
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RamdeeBen

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I'm 3 betting to make the CO fold tbh.
flatted the 4 bet for reasons above
and I just floated the flop to see what he would do on the turn.

But hey, the general consensus seems to point at it being a poor play, looks like I was very wrong in my opinion. You guys obviously know more than me. All your opinions are welcomed and noted.

It's fine raising IP it's when a BB cold 4bets, at 10nl they don't cold 4bet air ever and espically with his stats...it's just such a strong line and we're just not deep enough to try get creative and out play him,if he has QQ+ he's likely stacking anyway any flops/turns.

If you was both 250bb deep then it might be a different story, but you have to bear in mind it's a cold 4bet and this will generally be the absolute top of his range at these stakes.
 
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tim132

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Okay thanks. Bit of a newb question but how does the term "cold 4 bet" differ to just a 4 bet?
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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Okay thanks. Bit of a newb question but how does the term "cold 4 bet" differ to just a 4 bet?

The BB "cold 4b" when a original raiser goes 3x, you make a 3b, then BB, who has not been involved in the hand thusfar, makes a 4b.

It's a much stronger play then just a 4b, bc BB has zero involved in this pot so far and especially at the micro's, it means the nut's like all the time.
 
remus_ny

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normally I would flat call the original raiser, but if you had a reason to 3bet him ok BUT fold to that 4bet. On the flop I wouldn't float him, he looks very strong preflop (you need to have some history with him to make that decision).
 
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tim132

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The BB "cold 4b" when a original raiser goes 3x, you make a 3b, then BB, who has not been involved in the hand thusfar, makes a 4b.

It's a much stronger play then just a 4b, bc BB has zero involved in this pot so far and especially at the micro's, it means the nut's like all the time.

Thanks for that!
 
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baudib1

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Don't 3-bet hands which are perfectly profitable to flat with. 98s is perfect to flat vs. a wide CO range IP, especially if he's going to fire 1/give up or fold to flop raise a lot with a weak range...

Flatting the 4b is just spewing, you need to be a lot deeper to have any kind of odds to call and pretty much you'll be spewing then, too.
 
Yoshimiii

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Don't 3-bet hands which are perfectly profitable to flat with. 98s is perfect to flat vs. a wide CO range IP, especially if he's going to fire 1/give up or fold to flop raise a lot with a weak range...

Flatting the 4b is just spewing, you need to be a lot deeper to have any kind of odds to call and pretty much you'll be spewing then, too.

I would have thought it would be better to call a narrow range with 8/9s to try and stack someone rather than a wide range by an opener from CO. This looks like a perfect spot to 3 bet Pf.
 
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baudib1

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No, it's not. You don't want to play 98s vs. a tight range and you don't want to turn it into a bluff vs. a weak range.
 
Yoshimiii

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http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/general/3-betting/

This article says that this would be a perfect situation to light 3 bet.

"When and where to 3-bet light.

So we've discussed the advantages of the simple 3-bet, but when should you 3-bet light?

You want to 3-bet light with mid connectors/suited connectors like 67, 78 and 89, or 1 gap suited connectors like 68 and 79.
You should 3-bet light in position. Playing a 3-bet pot out of position is tricky (although not impossible).
You should mostly 3-bet raisers from LP. Raisers from EP are more likely to turn up with a strong hand.
You should try 3-betting light against TAG (Tight-Aggressive) and semi-TAG players."

To me it seems like 89s would play much better against AA than a hand like QJ, the villain won't put anywhere near as much money in with QJ as he would with AA. Much better implied odds.
 
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baudib1

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No, that article is stupid. There's really nothing more moronic than turning playable hands into bluffs. You will have better hands to bluff with than 98s.

Playing 98s vs. AA is not going to be profitable for you. In order to make money off AA, you have to beat AA, which isn't going to happen very often. What's going to happen is you flop some mediocre pair or a draw that you won't play profitably.

Whereas, vs. QJ, you don't even need to make a hand. 98s vs. QJ on T7x, I like my chances.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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What baudib is trying to say, in layman's terms (imo), is that you have too much equity with 98s to just turn it into a light 3b.

Chuckt's did an awesome podcast on this subject awhile ago, I can't find the link , but if I do, i'll link it for sure. It pretty much was all about how 3b suited connectors is bad bc they have so much equity, especially multi-way, so it's better to 3b hands like Ax, Kx, Qx bc they have blockers to big hands and can still flop big pairs.
 
naruto_miu

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I don't know about the rest of you, I personally liked the flat IP with 89s, now on flop you have a gutter (10 ball), and they bet once again, I don't really mind the flat there either...

The turn is where you and I play differently on (You chose to shove), while I would've like a checked...

River they bet you fold simple as that, while that may seem weak, It still saves you a ton, and when you do get there, they Check/Bet and you shove
 
LD1977

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What about being dominated with those hands? (Ax, Kx, Qx)
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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I don't know about the rest of you, I personally liked the flat IP with 89s, now on flop you have a gutter (10 ball), and they bet once again, I don't really mind the flat there either...

The turn is where you and I play differently on (You chose to shove), while I would've like a checked...

River they bet you fold simple as that, while that may seem weak, It still saves you a ton, and when you do get there, they Check/Bet and you shove


No offense, but none of that is okay ^ . Flatting a 4b w/89s HU IP is bad. Were crushed by BB's entire range and have to hit a miracle to win. The play is so -ev, it's really not even worth breaking down the ranges.

-Calling on the flop is also bad. We have 4 outs to a straight and we've put in 50 bbs so far. I can't begin to even explain how -ev this seriously is.


What about being dominated with those hands? (Ax, Kx, Qx)

Well, you might be at times...but the your not 3b light so that you can outflop them, more that you can get them to A. fold their original raise B. Fold on flops and we collect the dead $.

The whole plan of 3b light w/Ax's is that we block the chances of villain having an A. Also, Ax's plays very well postflop, bc we either have top pair or a big draw or air (most of the time). The problem lots of micro's guys run into 3b 89s light is when villain flats and a flop comes anything other then a nuclear draw for us. Something like Q92, 943, 668 etc. where we make a pair and have trouble folding when villain continues with us.

Overall: I think there's too much equity w/sc's to be 3b light in this spot. I understand what yoshi is saying too, and he's right. We do like playing sc's against a tight range UTG, since we will be getting paid enough, but I still think having multi-way action with sc's is more important then playing against a strong range.
 
Yoshimiii

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No offense, but none of that is okay ^ . Flatting a 4b w/89s HU IP is bad. Were crushed by BB's entire range and have to hit a miracle to win. The play is so -ev, it's really not even worth breaking down the ranges.

-Calling on the flop is also bad. We have 4 outs to a straight and we've put in 50 bbs so far. I can't begin to even explain how -ev this seriously is.




Well, you might be at times...but the your not 3b light so that you can outflop them, more that you can get them to A. fold their original raise B. Fold on flops and we collect the dead $.

The whole plan of 3b light w/Ax's is that we block the chances of villain having an A. Also, Ax's plays very well postflop, bc we either have top pair or a big draw or air (most of the time). The problem lots of micro's guys run into 3b 89s light is when villain flats and a flop comes anything other then a nuclear draw for us. Something like Q92, 943, 668 etc. where we make a pair and have trouble folding when villain continues with us.

Overall: I think there's too much equity w/sc's to be 3b light in this spot. I understand what yoshi is saying too, and he's right. We do like playing sc's against a tight range UTG, since we will be getting paid enough, but I still think having multi-way action with sc's is more important then playing against a strong range.

I always thought A rag played terrible post-flop, if you do flop an Ace and see action it's probably not good, you can't flop many draws unlike 89s and if the rag card comes it also may not be good.
 
taaron

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4nl/10nl, ppl are never folding big PP's. The other aspect is vs. villains perceived range here we are still crushed as better FD's are certainly in. One quick thing to add to the thought process check list is; "what can villain call with?," if its hands that have us dominated then its just an easy fold.

Here is a good example:


Hand rangesnopshot
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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I always thought A rag played terrible post-flop, if you do flop an Ace and see action it's probably not good, you can't flop many draws unlike 89s and if the rag card comes it also may not be good.

That's true....but not in 3b pots necessarily. Again, were 3b light with Ax's for two main reasons:

1. It has a blocker (A) to villain's potential hands.
2. It plays well post-flop in 3b pots, due to the fact that we can flop a NFD or top pair. Also, even if villain flats IP w/AJ, Q, K, when the flop does not come A hi, we can get folds from them.

I think people are forgetting when we are 3b light, were not doing it for value....were making this play to collect dead money. Also, especially at micro's, lots of players will flat 3bs preflop/then fold flops when they miss, making it even more dead $ for us to collect.

Also, Ax's can outflop all PP's with just an Ace on board, so were never really crushed v a villain's potential range of hands.
 
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tim132

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Some interesting debates and points there. I can now see reason to flat a raise pre-flop IP with suited connectors (because of equity) but obviously don't flat a cold 4bet like I did lol. I've only just learned about the cold 4bet and like you say it is usually going to be KK+, AK.

Of course this now opens the door to throw a cold 4bet bluff in against the right opponents depending on my table image. I've tried it once since learning about this and it worked, obviously it's not something I'll do frequently but it's another move to add to my arsenal!

I must admit though, whilst I've taken a lot of the advice on board I do still like 3betting suited connectors IP and from now on will vary between 3betting and calling. The way I see it, 3betting them we can turn our hands into a bluff on the flop if we hit no draws, but if we do hit a draw we have more control over the hand and can therefore set or own price for hitting the draw or probably even catch a free card if we want.
 
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