$10 NLHE 6-max: Should I have C-bet with AKs?

5c/10c ZOOM table
Villain (UTG) has $21.09
Hero (MP) has $8.55
Hero is dealt Ad Kd

SB posts 5c
BB posts 10c
Villain raises to 30c
Hero re-raises to $1
CO folds
BTN folds
SB folds
BB folds
Villain calls

$2.15 in pot
Flop is 3h 5h Th

Villain checks
Hero checks

Turn is 2h
Villain bets $1.07
Hero folds

Did I play this correctly? Should I have raised more preflop? Should I have C-bet on the flop? Should I have attempted to bluff the turn?

If this was a single raised pot I would not mind checking flop but since you 3bet pre you need to continue on this flop. As played you have to fold turn.

The 3bet size pref is good,like "Iplay" said,you should cbet the flop like 1.20 $ and if you get called,ch/fold the turn or river

IPlay said:

If this was a single raised pot I would not mind checking flop but since you 3bet pre you need to continue on this flop.

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How does this make any sense?

c9h13no3 said:

How does this make any sense?

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Because in a single raised pot this board smashes villains calling range and you are not getting a lot of folds so checking behind is ok.

When you 3 bet AK preflop you just have too continue on the flop almost 100% of the time. It is all about telling a believable story and do you really think AK has showdown value at this point? Checking this hand in a 3 bet pot is basically waving the white flag and telling villain to take the money.

To make things clear I am not advocating flatting AK preflop in this exact spot, I am just saying in general.

Instead of bashing my post why don't you actually post an analysis. That is what this subforum is for.

IPlay said:

Instead of bashing my post why don't you actually post an analysis. That is what this subforum is for.

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In which scenario does your opponent have a stronger range: when they call a raise or when they call a 3-bet?

When is Cbet more likely to get folds: when your opponent calls 1% of hands or 25% of hands?

"Telling a story" is not a reason to bet.

c9h13no3 said:

In which scenario does your opponent have a stronger range: when they call a raise or when they call a 3-bet?

When is Cbet more likely to get folds: when your opponent calls 1% of hands or 25% of hands?

"Telling a story" is not a reason to bet.

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I find it cute that you say villain only calls the 3bet with 1% of his range which is only half of AA combos? Once again you are contorting the numbers to make yourself seem correct.

We are talking about ranges that hit this flop, not which range is stronger as a whole. With that said this flop hits a 2 bet calling range much harder then a 3 bet calling range so my point stands. 3 betting AK preflop is a SEMI BLUFF so it is best to continue that story on the flop.

Betting this flop gets better hands and chops to fold.

Betting, folds out 88, 99, 77, AK and MAYBE some JJ hands with no hearts.

Checking, does nothing and gives villain the initiative and you now have to fold if he decides to bet and lets not forget we basically have no show down value at this point. So yeah, check these flops all day long.

Anyway, stop derailing threads with personal attacks at me and stick to the topics. Maybe even post something constructive if you have it in you! K, thanks, bye.

Thanks for your analyses. Yeah I think that betting perhaps 60% of the pot on the flop might've been a better approach, rather than just waving the white flag so quickly.

Flop I don't see any reason to Cbet.
but turn, I would raise his 1/2 pot bet.
I do think there is very tiny of the range could continue against this raise

and at least 3 times or even more to 5 times of that continue range would fold, and about 1.5 times from 3 of the range is better than your AK would fold.

IPlay said:

If this was a single raised pot I would not mind checking flop but since you 3bet pre you need to continue on this flop. As played you have to fold turn.

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this is the classic situation, His AK 80% should not betting here, unless there are some reads or hero here could advertise a very good table image.

XXPXXP said:

Flop I don't see any reason to Cbet.
but turn, I would raise his 1/2 pot bet.
I do think there is very tiny of the range could continue against this raise

and at least 3 times or even more to 5 times of that continue range would fold, and about 1.5 times from 3 of the range is better than your AK would fold.

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This answer is so bizarre I would like to hear a more in depth explanation. It really sounds like you are just saying stuff with nothing to back it.

IPlay said:

Anyway, stop derailing threads with personal attacks at me and stick to the topics.

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1) Disagreeing with you is not a personal attack.

2) This is a personal attack: You suck at posting on forums and taking criticism. You get emo, write long winded responses. Try thinking instead.

3) I made the 1% argument to point out that if their range is stronger, you should be less inclined to bluff.

4) Let's assume JJ isn't folding "Betting, folds out 88, 99, 77, AK and MAYBE some JJ hands with no hearts."

Folding Range:
77-99: 18 combinations
AQ, KQ, AK with no flush draw: 27 combos
Folding Combos: 45

Not a successful C-bet Range (they call, raise, and don't fold)
AQ, KQ, AK with a flush/flush draw: 21
TT: 2 combos
JJ-AA 24 combos
Total: 47

So we'd expect them to fold ~48% of the time if they have a loose 3-bet calling range out of position. Our c-bet would show a very small profit. But most people don't call 3-bets this loose in this spot. Villain raised UTG, we 3-bet. It's not a steal situation, Villain is full stacked. He's likely calling tighter.

If their range is stronger (JJ+, AQ+), then you will get less folds, and it's quite dramatic. The JJ+/AQ+ range has only 18 combos that fold, 38 that don't.

Finally, by betting we're also losing the opportunity to check back and hit an A or K (4 outs) when we get raised. This is pretty non-trivial because those 4 outs probably earn more than the tiny amount a c-bet would give us.

So many players just auto-pop the c-bet button, but it's just too easy to play against and often not the right choice.

Since OP provided no stats or reads on villains lets assume this is a straightforward hand.

Folding Range:

77-99: 18 combos

AQ, AK with no flush Draw 18 combos (lets be real, people are not flatting KQ when their UTG raise gets 3bet, maybe in 2007 when you actually could beat the game)

Folding combos: 36

Non-folding range:

AQ, AK with a flush draw: 14 (Once again it is pretty ludicrous to add KQ in here)

TT 2 combos

Here is your major error, villain will almost always 4bet AA and KK pre instead of flatting OOP and probably 4 bets QQ half the time so 9 combos in this area.(JJ-1/2 QQ)

25 combos in total

So they are actually folding more like ~57% of the time and lets assume he folds to a half pot cbet it is actually quite profitable considering it needs to work ~33% of the time.

With the stronger range you talk about we are in fact counting on preflop fold equity and giving up on the flop would be correct but that range seems more like a full ring 3 bet flatting range over a 6 max. So I would be willing to say that the latter range is wrong. Once again, betting the flop maximizes EV in this hand and checking does nothing more then turn your hand face up and wave the white flag.

You really seem to be a prime example of the type of "player" that spends more time posting on forums and giving beginners poor advice vs actually playing and beating the game for any significant money.

I think I am confused about one sentence
:Because in a single raised pot this board smashes villains calling range and you are not getting a lot of folds so checking behind is ok.
If we smash his range, does that mean he will fold a lot if we bet

First time i've been in this forum for a while and I come across this bitchy post. Please can we keep it civilised, insulting each other serves no useful purpose and drives away people from posting. Im replying on my phone which is hopeless and I cant get to the end of the medsage now to finish it.
What also isn't mentioned is whether we cbet or not also depends on what we know about the villains tendencies on the flop and how often we have been cbetting and if we attempting any sort of balance.
I note the flop is monotone in those circumstances with an unknown villain I will cbet the flop. It is simply my best chance to win the hand in the current circs, it ia a prime bluffing flop but personally I will only fire once only. Many players (including myself) without a heart or overpair will give up more than usual on the monotone

flop as if you dont have a heart and another arrives you cant call another bet. If it wasnt monotone Id be expecting to have to double or triple barrel to take this down which can get pricey and is totally villain dependent. Exactly why I hate zoom as reads are so limited. Here the fact he is UTG would factor towards a check behind on the majority of boards but not the monotone one.

zdm said:

I think I am confused about one sentence
:Because in a single raised pot this board smashes villains calling range and you are not getting a lot of folds so checking behind is ok.
If we smash his range, does that mean he will fold a lot if we bet

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We don't smash his range on this flop in a 2bet flop, it is actually a close spot and is not going to get a lot of folds AND AK does have some showdown value which makes checking behind ok, aswell as betting. It probably becomes more villain dependent then in a 3 bet pot since most 3 bet pots are played straightforward.

Figaroo, I couldn't agree with you more! Especially on a forum like CC where majority of the posters are actually very new to poker and don't need to be scared off by people berating someones post that is trying to help without so much as a counterargument to why said post is wrong. Also a very good analysis!

IPlay said:

Since OP provided no stats or reads on villains lets assume this is a straightforward hand.

Folding Range:

77-99: 18 combos

AQ, AK with no flush Draw 18 combos (lets be real, people are not flatting KQ when their UTG raise gets 3bet, maybe in 2007 when you actually could beat the game)

Folding combos: 36

Non-folding range:

AQ, AK with a flush draw: 14 (Once again it is pretty ludicrous to add KQ in here)

TT 2 combos

Here is your major error, villain will almost always 4bet AA and KK pre instead of flatting OOP and probably 4 bets QQ half the time so 9 combos in this area.(JJ-1/2 QQ)

25 combos in total

So they are actually folding more like ~57% of the time and lets assume he folds to a half pot cbet it is actually quite profitable considering it needs to work ~33% of the time.

With the stronger range you talk about we are in fact counting on preflop fold equity and giving up on the flop would be correct but that range seems more like a full ring 3 bet flatting range over a 6 max. So I would be willing to say that the latter range is wrong. Once again, betting the flop maximizes EV in this hand and checking does nothing more then turn your hand face up and wave the white flag.

You really seem to be a prime example of the type of "player" that spends more time posting on forums and giving beginners poor advice vs actually playing and beating the game for any significant money.

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Yes this is true
but did you forget "you can do the magic , the problem is the other side can do the magic as well!"

the range you think UTG is the range you may 3bet
therefore UTG may think you have the similar range as well.
against your Cbet, UTG could almost check raise his whole range for 1/2 pot- obv UTG have air, pair , pair+flush draw+nut flush, UTG have 40% beat u, and 60% lost to you, how are you going to play AK when Cbet against a check raise? are you going to continue with call, raise-bluff, or fold?

also, UTG knows your magic, and UTG knows if check raise works 33% of time, it shows profit, and it also works here as well.


what my analysis is from computer analysis, check is better. - the maths here is a little complicated, and long story to post.
by check, if you want to bluff, turn bluff still works
also by checking, if you have some value hand, you may get two street or plus value, by turn bet, river bet. [in case if range Vs range, you have some have could get 3street value, you could also stack off, by later two street]
but I think UTG is even more tighter than this range. anyway.

I c-bet in flop and see villan movie, if re-raise i just fold

You surely have to continue bet here. He might have a hand that didnt hit the board like you on the flop.

As played, no sense on continuing on turn.

The pre-flop bet sizing is fine. Personally, I would always c-bet in position in that spot because there is a good chance he doesn't have a 10 and if he does, he might be scared of the hearts. If he calls, then it would probably mean that he has either a flush or a flush draw and in that case it would've been an easy fold on the turn. Since you checked the flop, I don't see any point in floating/raising the turn though.

XXPXXP said:

this is the classic situation, His AK 80% should not betting here, unless there are some reads or hero here could advertise a very good table image.

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I thought you played every hand against different opponents in Zoom. Wouldn't that make it pretty much impossible to have reads?