$10 NLHE 6-max: set we want more value

M

micromoi

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CO: $5.88 (VPIP: 36.36, PFR: 4.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 22)
BTN: $11.12 (VPIP: 16.01, PFR: 12.32, 3Bet Preflop: 5.53, Hands: 1,366)
Hero (SB): $11.49
BB: $10.00 (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 8.89, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 45)
UTG: $10.00 (VPIP: 18.67, PFR: 10.28, 3Bet Preflop: 2.39, Hands: 764)
UTG+1: $10.05 (VPIP: 14.38, PFR: 10.40, 3Bet Preflop: 3.71, Hands: 2,636)
MP: $12.88 (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
MP+1: $11.30 (VPIP: 24.68, PFR: 19.30, 3Bet Preflop: 8.21, Hands: 543)

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has 7:heart: 7:spade:

fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to $0.30, fold, BTN calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.20, 4 players) 7:club: T:spade: J:diamond:
Hero checks, BB checks, MP+1 bets $0.80, BTN calls $0.80, Hero raises to $2.20, fold, fold, fold
 
IPlay

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Squeeze preflop, set mining out of the SB sucks.

Flatting probably isn't too bad if you are against bad players but as a default I think we should squeeze pre. What sucks about set mining OOP is that we have to raise this flop because if we flat flop turn will check through 90% of the time. While check/raising looks stupid strong on this board and even overpairs will probably find folds here.

You could flat flop and lead turn but there is a lot of turns that are scary for you and the villains so this is probably the best way you can play this hand and just hope they have something to GII with.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Squeeze vs. flat is meh. Depends on stats. But with villain's big 3-bet rate, I think he wouldn't just fold quietly.

I think I just lead the flop, I don't trust MP to cbet everytimex and check/raising the field looks pretty scary.

Once you check, gotta just cram it I would think.
 
IPlay

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Squeeze vs. flat is meh. Depends on stats. But with villain's big 3-bet rate, I think he wouldn't just fold quietly.

I think I just lead the flop, I don't trust MP to cbet everytimex and check/raising the field looks pretty scary.

Once you check, gotta just cram it I would think.

Do you really think set mining against a reg with a wider then usual range OOP is going to be more profitable then squeezing? I agree flatting isn't too terrible and probably has some EV but squeezing is going to make us more money long term, especially as we climb stakes.

It also changes things since this is full ring and not 6 max. It was folded to villain who is actually a little loose for full ring and is probably raising a wide range from this position. Set mining against wider ranges is meh, especially OOP. I wouldn't mind set mining vs UTG open with a caller or two but in this spot. Squeeze is best.
 
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c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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We're not climbing dtakes, this is 10NL. And we're not against a good LAG, thus is prolly just a loose bad LAG that can't fold. I think full ring makes it more of a setmine.
 
IPlay

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We're not climbing dtakes, this is 10NL. And we're not against a good LAG, thus is prolly just a loose bad LAG that can't fold. I think full ring makes it more of a setmine.

Villain is going to be raising pretty wide here when folded too so why are we going to set mine against a weak range that probably isn't paying us off?

We will have to agree to disagree and your first statement shows a weak mindset of "I'm comfortable and never want to improve" People squeeze more as they climb because they realize it is the most EV way to play the hand regardless of opponents. The only reason call is ok(Not best, but ok) here is because we are playing weak opponents. As you move up you should be 3 betting or folding the vast majority of the time because we shouldn't be flatting from the SB to set mine here.
 
Aces2w1n

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check raising is usually turning ur hand faceup... u got multi people in pot just call on flop.

the pot will naturally build multiway
 
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I think leading flop and barreling off is best, stacking vs a flop raise. Probably folding if we get raised on a turn or river A. Evaluating on 9 runouts. CR here is very bad imo. You have pretty much zero bluffs CRing vs MP c-bet + nit coldcalling flop, and with BB behind you.

I don't really like squeezing vs MP +1 open and a cold-calling BTN nit. We don't have much fold equity, and it's much better to 3-bet bluff hands that can flop equity (suited connectors/suited Ax) or squeeze hands that flop strong top pair hands (AQ). With a PP in a squeezed pot, it's really hard to continue unless we make a set.

LAG probably not giving up a lot, and BTN is going to call a decent amount whether or not LAG calls. Would prefer a squeeze only if LAG is aggro pre but gives up vs 3-bets, which is not very common.
 
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TimovieMan

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I don't like the idea of a preflop squeeze, especially in full ring and vs these two. No fold equity whatsoever. I just call and setmine here.


When on auto-pilot I play this the same as OP. When focused, I donk for about 2/3s of the pot and keep barreling.
 
TimovieMan

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I'm just gonna drop an lol and move on.
Why? MP has a PFR of 5%. His range is going to be stronger than ours, so the squeeze isn't for value, and I seriously doubt he's folding anything in that range.
Squeezing will fold BTN but since we're most likely ahead of his range anyway, I see no need to fold him.

I'm here to learn, so please elaborate instead of just dropping an lol.
 
IPlay

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Why? MP has a PFR of 5%. His range is going to be stronger than ours, so the squeeze isn't for value, and I seriously doubt he's folding anything in that range.
Squeezing will fold BTN but since we're most likely ahead of his range anyway, I see no need to fold him.

I'm here to learn, so please elaborate instead of just dropping an lol.

For starters MP isn't in this hand.
 
TheBigFinn

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I like the call preflop to set mine. Play big or go home, IMHO. If you call, BB has monster odds to call making your set mine pretty cheap. MP+1 is opening wide and the but call doesn't doesn't look very strong. You do have fold equity, but a call puts you in bad position, against players with better than average hands.

If you don't hit the flop you have to fold. As played, I like the check raise too. If the board looks scary to you it is even worse for the raiser and other callers. The question is if it was going to check through, what are the odds you'd get calls to a donk raise? What turn cards are bad for you if it chackes through?

A Q? A 9? Maybe? What else? Not much. A & K are good for you as they might give someone top pair. So are a J & T, considering they might give someone 2 pair one of the callers 2 pair. Not much risk as I see it.

Once you get the bet call I like the push. There is already $3.80 in the pot and you might get called by an over pair or straight draw.
 
Romario2223

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on this board I'll raise
 
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He wont bluff-cbet on a J-high flop multiway, every hand he would c-bet with would call a bet aswell, so lead Flop?
 
IPlay

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Ugh. MP+1. You know who I meant.

I would of but you also cited MP's 5% PFR as a reason for flatting since he has a tight range.

Initial raiser has a pfr of 19.3% so he is probably raising ~25% from MP+1 when folded too(He raises too much). Especially with nothing but nits and a single fish left to act in front.

22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,A5o+,K9o+,QTo+

When we squeeze here there is plenty of his range to fold. Here is his raising range. What part of this range will call the squeeze? Well lets say he calls wide, even though he should fold a little tighter since the he has to worry about the button and probably won't have position if he flats. Let's keep it wide though.

22+,ATs+,KJs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,AQo+

What?? He folds ~60% of his range?? That is some nice fold equity. but wait, the button also called. Well $#%* him. He is a nitty tag that would of 3 bet a hand that he is going to call your 3 bet with, we have so much fold equity with him that I shouldn't have to go any further.

So we already established MP +1 will fold ~60% of his range to a squeeze so what is the perfect bet sizing here? $1.65, we want to go pretty large here since we are OOP and slightly deeper.

So we are betting $1.60 to win $0.75 and to do this profitably we need folds ~47% of the time and by our earlier calculations we have that! Even better is that if he does call we can still hit a set ~12% of the time on the flop and we are a coin flip against his continuing range. We also create a lower SPR which makes it easier to get stacks in when we hit. We can also make better hands fold on some flops. We kind of have the world of EV open up to us when we squeeze.

Now you tell me why flatting with a low pocket pair against a wide range OOP is the better play. How often are we stacking a wide range OOP? How often are we putting in 3bbs just to x/fold the flop? A TON!! If you always flat here with small pocket pairs to set mine you probably have a leak. Pardon any slight mistakes I may have had, it's 3 am after a 14 hour session of zone.
 
Aces2w1n

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I like the flat pre cuz BB got in and gave us more value.

I don't like flatting if it's LP vs US in blinds. but its a MWP so it's fine. and because it's MW i'm against us raising and I think flatting is the best option to build the pot on the flop also.
 
IPlay

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I like the flat pre cuz BB got in and gave us more value.

I don't like flatting if it's LP vs US in blinds. but its a MWP so it's fine. and because it's MW i'm against us raising and I think flatting is the best option to build the pot on the flop also.

It is better to flat if it is a LP open because he will have a tighter range that we have a higher chance of stacking and we have less fold equity on our squeeze. To be honest MP +1 is probably borderline vs squeezing and calling and more spots this villains moves into LP it is more of a flat and the closer he is to EP the more it is a squeeze. I still prefer squeezing here though and I'd be flatting if the pre flop raiser had a tighter range.
 
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f1reball

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SB vs HJ, i'd squezze that 4 a bluff & shove vs his 4b, still 4 a bluff.
 
Samuel Lee

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4 people active on the flop where one is BTN with a wide range against a 3BB raise especially and BB that has also a wide range protecting the blinds.
With that being said I would take the risk to slow down the action, they have too often a draw in their range with that board so I would go ahead and bet, don't let them have the chance to see the turn for free.
 
H

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I would donk the flop. Lots of ppl in the pot and a very dynamic board. If it gets checked through it is a disaster.
 
IPlay

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bluffing with small PP doesn't seem like a good strategy... I always thought A2s - A5s would be best or ATs-AKs

If he calls wide 77 is a coin flip vs his calling range. A2s-A5s is a 60/40. I probably save the A2s-A5s for tighter ranges that folds to a 3bet a lot. This stuff is important to get down if you want to get your redline up.

I am only talking about squeezing not 5 bet bluff shipping. We would have to know villain is a total maniac to 5 bet shove over a 4 bet.
 
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