$10 NLHE 6-max: Second set facing a jam 250 BB deep

pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker - https://upswingpoker.com/convert

UTG: $28.19 (282 bb)
MP: $13.95 (140 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.36 (254 bb)
BU: $17.15 (172 bb)
SB: $10.00 (100 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with Td Th
UTG raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 2 players fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.25) Ah 2s 4h (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.25) Tc (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.60, MP calls $0.60, Hero raises to $2.10, BB folds, UTG raises to $6.34, MP folds, Hero calls $4.24

River: ($14.53) 8s (2 players)
UTG bets $21.55 (all-in), Hero?

Its a Zoom hand so no strong reads on the main Villain. The HUD showed VPIP 10 / PFR 10 over 20 hands, so probably not a fish though.

My thoughts,

you are beat only by AA and 53. 53 is unlikely for UTG, anyway he would likely bet it on flop because of FD. He would also likely bet AA on the flop also because of FD.

On the other hand I see virtually no hands he would take this line with.

Maybe only KhQh? Assuming he doesn't cbet flop, he has nut FD + gutshot nut straight draw.

5h3h would make sense, but it is not in his UTG range. He would also probably cbet this.

After flop checks around, he might raise turn with JJ-KK, assuming no one has Ax. But once called, the river jam doesn't make much sense to me.

Strange line by villain anyway.

Cheers

I think AA is a real possibility here. I think I would have played this hand identically to villain if I had AA, except i don't think I'm jamming river...I would probably bet $8 or $9 to give 10x a chance to hero call. I also think I would have played 44 and 22 differently in that I would have bet hoping someone had Ax. With 3 other hands involved, very good chance of that. Many people I think would still opt to slow play those. I also don't think you can completely rule out A4 and A2 suited or even A 10. A4 and A2 could slow play, the board isn't that scary so A 10 could opt to check to control the pot a bit. 2 of KQJ hearts are also very reasonable possibilities that could take that line. I think a 3bet would be a bad play for those hands(as well as the river jam), but you get a mix of solid players and very bad players at the $10 NL tables so I couldn't rule that out.

At the end of the day, you have the 2nd best realistically possible hand on the board...and enough reasonable alternate options that I'm calling this one. Also, that river jam for me does not look like AA...looks more like a missed mega-draw.

strange line.. thats why i dont play zoom anymore lol, dont think i could fold this.. its not a massive overbet and if he plays AA like that, he could also do it with a smaller set.

but i remember a very similar spot i was in! i had also 2nd set and the only straight was 53.
it was also an utg raise (6max) from an unknown, not fishy, player and i swear he had 53s!!!

still that should be super rare and as said id probably call but with a very bad feeling.

Thanks to anyone who commented. Nobody seem to be in favour of folding, and I did indeed end up calling him down and was shown the pocket rockets. When he 3-bet the turn after checking the flop, the hand, that came to my mind right away was in fact the rockets, since people love to slowplay top set for better or worse. So it was already a bit of a womit feeling in my mouth, and this is part of the reason why, I just called rather than 4-bet.

When he over-bet jammed the river, I was really looking for a bucket, but as some have said, this was the second best hand, someone should realistically have. So I called, because I felt, "I had to". This is an older hand, and it contributed to the kind of hate, I developed against Zoom poker, which in my opinion is just an endless series of hideous coolers like this

fundiver199 said:

I developed against Zoom poker, which in my opinion is just an endless series of hideous coolers like this

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I have long noticed that zoom poker on the stars is a endless cooler, which are apparently created in order to increase the rake in the bank. They can claim that their random number generator is regularly checking by a special commission, but my trust in this poker room has long been lost.

I dont think, Stars or Zoom is rigged, but its difficult to get reads on Zoom, and therefore you are sometimes forced to call in situations, where on a regular table you might have been able to find a fold.

And in top of that, because you and other players play long sessions on Zoom, deep stacked hands like this are way more likely to happen. On a regular table, set over set will also happen from time to time, but chances are stacks are closer to 100BB effective, so your variance is going to be lower.

Most of all I have come to the conclusion, that I prefer regular tables, because they tend to be softer, I can easily identify the fish, and I can table and seat select, which is not possible on Zoom.

not folding sets. specially not zoom

Id gii AA will usually cbet although they can go for a check raise multi way but i wouldn't fold second set here. I cant say i love the call but i dislike folding more than i dislike calling in this spot.

Fvendal said:

Id gii AA will usually cbet although they can go for a check raise multi way but i wouldn't fold second set here. I cant say i love the call but i dislike folding more than i dislike calling in this spot.

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With two guys left to act after him, check-raising the flop has merits for Villain. I dont like his river overbet though. He got super lucky, that I had literally the only hand, that might call this sizing. AT for instance would be a snap fold for me.

Its close i would look on timing. Most logical AA. He checks flop because nobody will hit board. I think it wouldn't be huge -EV to fold on river to over bet deep stack. In 100 BB he sometimes could slow play 44 here in 250 BB i don`t know.

If he had KhQh QhJh i think its beter to call for him o push on turn.

I think you have to pay off here. If you don't have 53s in your preflop calling range, then TT is the best hand you have here to call down.

I don't hate villain overbet on the river as there are more worse made hands that can pay him off when you raise-call.

Fold

Speaking from behind my computer screen, imma fold dissun.

The only hands i would even consider he has here is AA or AT (3 combos of both). 22 and 44 don't happen from UTG. JJ-KK are more of a possibility but i dont think they re-raise the turn nor shove river. Dont even think of 53.

So 3 combos of AA and 3 combos of AT. Obviously he's more likely opening AA from UTG, so i lean a little towards a fold. And if he is opening AT from UTG, prolly more likely he's opening ATs, which is just 1 combo.

I think we can find the fold button here, but then again, i have no money in this pot.

Preflop:
You have a very good hand for re-raising in position. Think that UTG can be opened with various high combinations like AK; AQ; AJ; AT and for which you are favorite from this place.
In addition, your pocket has a preflop force against all possible combinations of 48% So it is profitable to look for now, a larger line of value from this place, and at the same time make that stagnant or dominated all middle and speculative hands, which will continue to see the flop.
Flop:
Again in front of a coordinated board, you must continue betting. To protect your hand. A standard size of 40% of the boat would be enough to mark your leadership.
If the villain increases us, we must fold, since we are being overcome most of the time. In addition the texture does not favor the call to a 3bet from this place.
If the board had another ace that is not of heart + 2 streets of heart, our bet c should be a little bigger and in this case, it would have a high value of fold equity, since it would make many average hands (or even better to the our) that will leave the hand.
Turn:
The best street in the deck appeared and at the same time, many combinations for the villain failed. You have to be happy, because now your hand is so good, it doesn't block the best bluffs and semi bluffs: A-K; A-Q; A-J; K-Q; K-J; Q-J (27 combos).
You are only defeated with pocket aces (up to 2 combos) and 3-5 (up to 6 combos).
You also have an important blocker, which protects you 62% from the turn. So you have everything in your favor, to try now all possible bets.
River:
A dead street appears, it does not change the scheme we had on the turn. Basically we are the second best set and we are also behind a ghost staircase (11 streets that defeat us).
The striking thing is the size of the villain's bet. If we remember, the villain made a bet on the turn. In other words, just at that time, he began his attack initiative. This makes me think that probably from that moment, he began to protect his hand (perhaps from a future major staircase). This may be an indication that UTG has some set in its range.
But it catches my attention that he has not sought to protect him in the flop (especially if we are talking about AA) And also if we think he is not a recreational player (although it is unlikely to determine this in a sample of 20 hands, more than VPIP and PFR are the same, this sample is insufficient to give us accurate information).
So in the face of this situation I would cross my fingers and call.
Greetings.

I would have insta-called in this spot. You have a monster hand on the turn and there are no more straight cards that came out. The flush didn't get there. By the looks of it, it feels like a missed flush draw or two-pair.

It's just a tough hand. I think his flop check with the flush draw on the board and as many players in the hand is bad. Other than that...I don't think I could fold 2nd set in that spot.

Lech Jonczyk said:

My thoughts,

you are beat only by AA and 53. 53 is unlikely for UTG, anyway he would likely bet it on flop because of FD. He would also likely bet AA on the flop also because of FD.

On the other hand I see virtually no hands he would take this line with.

Maybe only KhQh? Assuming he doesn't cbet flop, he has nut FD + gutshot nut straight draw.

5h3h would make sense, but it is not in his UTG range. He would also probably cbet this.

After flop checks around, he might raise turn with JJ-KK, assuming no one has Ax. But once called, the river jam doesn't make much sense to me.

Strange line by villain anyway.

Cheers

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Thank U 4 Responding.

As this is six max and 1010 in the CO called in six max suggesting few 3 bets. I think we can easily give UTG 22 44. When we do this it becomes consistent with UTG's flop check as UTG was expecting an A to bet which they could leverage with a check raise. The 22 44 hands are a little more likely when again UTG 3 bets turn big thinking hero is more likely to have AX 2 pair and call.

AA blocks a lot of AX 2 pairs so villain may not expect to get that much value from that board to put in a big 3 bet turn with AA.

It does seem like AA played poorly for value but 22 44 could be there. So could a weirdly played AK with the K flush blocker trying to get something to fold?

Never say never in poker. Players show up with some very strange hands.

Hope this helps

fundiver199 said:

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker - https://upswingpoker.com/convert

UTG: $28.19 (282 bb)
MP: $13.95 (140 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.36 (254 bb)
BU: $17.15 (172 bb)
SB: $10.00 (100 bb)
BB: $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with Td Th
UTG raises to $0.30, MP calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, 2 players fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.25) Ah 2s 4h (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.25) Tc (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.60, MP calls $0.60, Hero raises to $2.10, BB folds, UTG raises to $6.34, MP folds, Hero calls $4.24

River: ($14.53) 8s (2 players)
UTG bets $21.55 (all-in), Hero?

Its a Zoom hand so no strong reads on the main Villain. The HUD showed VPIP 10 / PFR 10 over 20 hands, so probably not a fish though.

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That is just an easy call he is either bluffing with a busted flush draw or he has two pair and he puts you on having a pair of Ace so he thinks he can beat your top pair

This is a crazy hand man. Crazy line he took, and yea, hard to imagine him doing this exact line with hands that you can beat.

One of those things where you call just because you would vs population on zoom. Hard to lay down.

I agree his river bet really only gets paid off by your exact hand...

I Know It's very tough to fold here and i would have also called but if you look at theoritical point of view He can only have AA,22 or 44.
Its zoom and players are generally tight and villians utg range will not have 53 for straight and not even that much KQs,kjs for fd, Really depends on the player.
He is not having many Aces up as A4,A2 is unlikely and You Block AT.
And Knowing About The Players Really Helps, if its a fish he can do this With AK,AQ etc also and many two pairs and you can go all in on the turn.
But since zoom has generally good field
So its a good Call On Turn considiring villian can check and you have a lot of showdown Value in general.
On River You Can Find a Fold If You Know The Player Type.
But really a tough spot.
I Think You Could Have Made This Hand Better For You If You Would Have 3-Bet Preflop.
Villian Would Have 4-Bet You and Would You Have Called Fold Or 4 Bet him There?

seeyouthru said:

I Think You Could Have Made This Hand Better For You If You Would Have 3-Bet Preflop. Villian Would Have 4-Bet You and Would You Have Called Fold Or 4 Bet him There?

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I think, 3-betting TT against an UTG open kind of allow Villain to play perfect. All better hands call, and most worst hands fold, so you are mostly just denying some equity to hands like for instance AJ or KQ, and the hand has no relevant blockers.

This deep I am also not sure, TT is a fold to a 4-bet. Depending how large he go, you might actually have to take a flop in position and try to hit your set and do some bluff catching on low boards, where AK missed.

So I think, the end result for a 3-bet would have been me for sure getting stacked on this runout. Flop would have gone check-check, and when I make second set on the turn in an already bloated pot, there is no way, I am ever folding.

As played I was actually considering a fold on the river, and I think, its one, you could possibly make, even though it is pretty sick. But is this line really ever anything other than AA at 10NL, probably not.

Nothing you can do, this is just a cooler. There have to be a million other spots to improve our game before looking for spots where we can fold the effective second nuts with no reads. I would have gone broke here too. I like your line, I would have probably just 4 bet turn for value since he only has 3 combos that beat us. Either way the money goes in. Even with reads this is an sick spot to try to find a fold.

fundiver199 said:

I think, 3-betting TT against an UTG open kind of allow Villain to play perfect. All better hands call, and most worst hands fold, so you are mostly just denying some equity to hands like for instance AJ or KQ, and the hand has no relevant blockers.

This deep I am also not sure, TT is a fold to a 4-bet. Depending how large he go, you might actually have to take a flop in position and try to hit your set and do some bluff catching on low boards, where AK missed.

So I think, the end result for a 3-bet would have been me for sure getting stacked on this runout. Flop would have gone check-check, and when I make second set on the turn in an already bloated pot, there is no way, I am ever folding.

As played I was actually considering a fold on the river, and I think, its one, you could possibly make, even though it is pretty sick. But is this line really ever anything other than AA at 10NL, probably not.

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The Thing 3-Bet Would Have Done is first of all Taken it Heads up.
And he would have obviously 4-Bet You From Utg.
Now With That You Can Really Close Down The Range To JJ+.
Which Would Have Really Helped You!

Hah! "an endless series of hideous coolers" : sounds about right. The only time I tried this type of poker I had a set-over-set, straight-over-straight, and flush-over-flush in the first 15 minutes and never tried it again. I don't like playing short-handed and only tried it while waiting for a seat at a full table.

seeyouthru said:

The Thing 3-Bet Would Have Done is first of all Taken it Heads up.
And he would have obviously 4-Bet You From Utg.
Now With That You Can Really Close Down The Range To JJ+.
Which Would Have Really Helped You!

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Most people are also 4-betting AK, and sometimes a few bluffs as well. So on this particular board there is no way, I can ever fold TT in a 4-bet pot, when he is probably going to get it in with AK, and there are 4 times more combos of AK than AA.