$10 NLHE 6-max: River line in this 4bet pot?

Hey all

Played this hand today:

pokerstars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 88.7 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 3)
Hero (SB): 178 BB
BB: 644.5 BB (VPIP: 26.05, PFR: 18.49, 3Bet Preflop: 2.33, Hands: 121)
UTG: 40.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 89.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
CO: 168.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ad 8d
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero raises to 20.5 BB, BB calls 11.5 BB

Flop : (41 BB, 2 players) Ks 7d 9d
Hero bets 12.9 BB, BB calls 12.9 BB

Turn : (66.8 BB, 2 players) 5d
Hero bets 29.5 BB, BB calls 29.5 BB

River : (125.8 BB, 2 players) 6h
Hero bets 115.1 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 120.1 BB



I think preflop flop and turn are reasonable lines, Villain is a reg.

What about the river? Cant really assign him any realistic range once he calls the turn.
I expect AA and KK to 5bet preflop but he is a reg so he might be calling in position to mix it a bit. I also think KK might shove turn.

Is the river shove okay? I thought about check shoving but since the runout was so scary for him I chose to shove, as it would be also a good bluff spot for me.
I thought he would be more willing to call the river shove than he would be betting the river himself.

He could be calling with most of his value hands because its a 4bet pot and the runout really doesnt favour the 4bettor. I have basically no 8x there and only a few wheel flushes like A2-A5h.

What do u think?

Ahoy said:

Hey all

Played this hand today:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 88.7 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
Hero (SB): 178 BB
BB: 644.5 BB (VPIP: 26.05, PFR: 18.49, 3Bet Preflop: 2.33, Hands: 121)
UTG: 40.6 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 89.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
CO: 168.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ad 8d
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero raises to 20.5 BB, BB calls 11.5 BB

Flop : (41 BB, 2 players) Ks 7d 9d
Hero bets 12.9 BB, BB calls 12.9 BB

Turn : (66.8 BB, 2 players) 5d
Hero bets 29.5 BB, BB calls 29.5 BB

River : (125.8 BB, 2 players) 6h
Hero bets 115.1 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 120.1 BB



I think preflop flop and turn are reasonable lines, Villain is a reg.

What about the river? Cant really assign him any realistic range once he calls the turn.
I expect AA and KK to 5bet preflop but he is a reg so he might be calling in position to mix it a bit. I also think KK might shove turn.

Is the river shove okay? I thought about check shoving but since the runout was so scary for him I chose to shove, as it would be also a good bluff spot for me.
I thought he would be more willing to call the river shove than he would be betting the river himself.

He could be calling with most of his value hands because its a 4bet pot and the runout really doesnt favour the 4bettor. I have basically no 8x there and only a few wheel flushes like A2-A5h.

What do u think?

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I like bigger flop bet say 27bb to try and enduce a raise and look defensive against draws then same on turn try and get raised .if called on turn then 1/3 pot river .again trying to get raised or called obv

I guess the dynamic is different from 6-max, but A8s is not a hand i like to be light 4-betting with. Yes, its suited, but other than that it is a terrible ace, cannot make Broadway or wheel. I tend to keep my light 3/4-bet range A2-5, AT, and some other hands not relevant in this spot But i play full ring live so i could be completely wrong. I usually just flat the 3-bet here.

Flop, your bet is to small imo. 1/4 pot looks really suspicious. Either you smashed this one out of the park with KdKx, or you have some sort of A-high flush draw tryig to give yourself odds. I like to continue for maybe 2/3, 3/4 here. Remember, we only make our hand 35% of the time, so if he folds we are not sad at all. Also, if we lead this much it represents a made hand like AK, KK, maybe some suited K9 you got sticky with. Also, if we get raised we still have enough equity to call.

As played, turn is a 2/3-pot. Checking can't happen as we basically revealed our hand on the flop, he checks back here every time i think. This did bring in a str8 as well, so we could have that too.

This is exactly why i don't like leading the flop so small. We have basically repped flush, maybe str8 draws on the flop, and now both have come in. If we lead more on the flop, we can check this to him and see a bet more often.

As played, river is a value-bet, he really cant call a jam here ever unless he has a random 8 hand like 88 or A8. There are 4-to-a-straight on board as well, so this was a crappy runout against AK or a set. I go pretty small and hope he calls me.

Much rather peel pre than 4b, if we do 4b we need to choose a sizing closer to 3 to 3.5x.

Id rather 4b A4s/A5s, Or AJo/AQo or like 67s or 78s in a spot like this.

Id cbet larger as well, we are at range advantage, have a good hand, and its a wet board.

I would also go larger on turn to set up smaller river shove.

I def prefer jamming or like 95bb+ to anything else on river.

Hey all, thanks for the replies!

Protential said:

Much rather peel pre than 4b, if we do 4b we need to choose a sizing closer to 3 to 3.5x.

Id rather 4b A4s/A5s, Or AJo/AQo or like 67s or 78s in a spot like this.

Id cbet larger as well, we are at range advantage, have a good hand, and its a wet board.

I would also go larger on turn to set up smaller river shove.

I def prefer jamming or like 95bb+ to anything else on river.

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Hey mate! Appreciate your input.

Is the sizing you suggested purely based on the stack depth? Usually people recommend going 2,2-2,5 in 4bet pots but here we are talking about a bit deeper eff stacks.

I kinda dont fancy myself playing a 3bet pot OOP this deep against this reg, I 4bet solely because the general population and especially regs in this pool overfold to 4bets and dont like playing this deep. Positional disadvantage made me 4bet this + the fact he is a reg so I expect him to have some bluffs in his 3bet range here.

Yea agree with the suited wheel aces a better candidate for this but the blocker value is still there, I tried running the evaluation and A8d against his precieved calling range this deep (TT+,AQs+,KQs,AKo) is roughly 32,15% which is just about 0,15% lower than A2s-A5s. I understand the playability factor of these hands though so I know where are u aiming most likely.

The C-bet sizing 30% is again an adaptation to general player tendency in this pool. I use this sizing both in 3bet and 4bet pots when C-betting and I use it for 100% of my range (there is very rarely a situation where I dont c-bet in these spots as they overfold massively). It works perfectly as people play very fit or fold postflop and the good price invites calls from often dominated hands. It also keeps the SPR in place with standard stack depth.
Would you, again, suggest the bigger sizing just due to fact that we are deeper than 100bb?

The turn sizing could have been bigger I agree with this, so the river shove could be smaller.

Thanks for the reply mate!

TenJack said:

I guess the dynamic is different from 6-max, but A8s is not a hand i like to be light 4-betting with. Yes, its suited, but other than that it is a terrible ace, cannot make Broadway or wheel. I tend to keep my light 3/4-bet range A2-5, AT, and some other hands not relevant in this spot But i play full ring live so i could be completely wrong. I usually just flat the 3-bet here.

Flop, your bet is to small imo. 1/4 pot looks really suspicious. Either you smashed this one out of the park with KdKx, or you have some sort of A-high flush draw tryig to give yourself odds. I like to continue for maybe 2/3, 3/4 here. Remember, we only make our hand 35% of the time, so if he folds we are not sad at all. Also, if we lead this much it represents a made hand like AK, KK, maybe some suited K9 you got sticky with. Also, if we get raised we still have enough equity to call.

As played, turn is a 2/3-pot. Checking can't happen as we basically revealed our hand on the flop, he checks back here every time i think. This did bring in a str8 as well, so we could have that too.

This is exactly why i don't like leading the flop so small. We have basically repped flush, maybe str8 draws on the flop, and now both have come in. If we lead more on the flop, we can check this to him and see a bet more often.

As played, river is a value-bet, he really cant call a jam here ever unless he has a random 8 hand like 88 or A8. There are 4-to-a-straight on board as well, so this was a crappy runout against AK or a set. I go pretty small and hope he calls me.

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Hey bro! Appreciate your input.

Note that this is not an usual situation, Im also not 4betting every suited ace (although I have seen regs do it in 10NL pool) but this case is a bit different. Its BvB 170 bb deep so the ranges are wider than usual. As I replied to Protential above I was much more inclined to 4bet than call cuz we would be OOP.

Flop sizing: we should not be judging our/villains holding strength by sizing esp. when we are talking about known regs /he knows me and I know him, we both know we are regs/
The sizing is due to the SPR and the stuff I mentioned above again.
I am betting my whole range with the same sizing otherwise that is a tell and I am getting easily exploited by the regs (there are some situations where I change this ofc)

Turn could be bigger agreed but if we bet bigger on the flop and then 2/3 on the turn we are both so commited that what we have behind OTR is going already in and he sees this so he could be folding out more. I would prefer betting the same amount on the flop (or sligthly bigger) and betting a bit bigger on the turn but again not 2/3 so the SPR on the river is not that weird. Note that I bet small on both flop and turn and still my river shove was not a full pot so I think the sizing is not that bad, once he calls turn I expect him to stack off. There are very very few scare cards for him if he called flop and turn in a 4bet pot.

Also note that regs on 10NL zoom are scared of playing 4bet pots and scared playing for stacks. I try to exploit this by dragging them to deep waters where they make mistakes under pressure.

Thanks!!

iamtoldurghey said:

I like bigger flop bet say 27bb to try and enduce a raise and look defensive against draws then same on turn try and get raised .if called on turn then 1/3 pot river .again trying to get raised or called obv

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Hey man thanks for the reply.
Actually we dont want to get raised on the flop, we have a range advantage preflop. If he raises us on the flop its pretty hard to play other streets as we are OOP and its kinda deep.

Thanks

Okay, what you said makes sense. I agree, we shouldn't simply be playing the hand. Always play your range, etc. I personally don't like keeping a uniform sizing, that in itself seems expoitable. Ie, if you are continuing for 1/3 every time versus regs, they know how they can play at least the flop a certain way. Also, bet sizing is one of the most important things we can look at. Yes, it isn't wise to just bet your hand, but sizing tells us lots about our opponent and how strong he is.

As for 4-betting, the fact that we are oop should make us less innclined to 4-bet, not more. Basically when he 3-bets, he has his complete shit hands like 65o that are trying to resteal versus a fairly wide range, he has his wheel aces that are sort of flailing, and he has his value hands like AK and such. When we four-bet, we A: fold out the shit hands we have equity against. B: Get called by his wheel aces we are only slightly ahead of and C: Get jammed/ 5-bet by his big hands.

So essentially we target a small portion of his range and end up playing a huge pot oop.

This is just my two cents, i could be completely insane as i knoew nothing about online micros.

Hey man,

The thing is that we want to rather 4bet here OOP because of two things, first we don't want to call with such a weak hand compared to his 3bet value range and second we don't want to play OOP. 4betting will make him fold massive part of his range, people overfold to 4bets massively and if he choses toti 5bet we can just happily.

When he 3bets bb vs sb his range is pretty wide and he is going to fold a huge part of it, but the thing is he is never 3betting for example 65o, people in this pool are 3betting very very linear. So we are mainly targeting hands that have 1. More equity than us (AJ for example) or are in very decent shape postflop IP (QJs for example).
I see you are playing live and I think the pools differ quite a lot from what I have heard and read here on forum, 4bet pots are pretty rare on micros and people massively overfold to preflop aggression in general.

But i probAbly get where you are coming from.


Thanks!

I guess i can see the 4-bet. This is the second thread in a row i have made myself seem silly in simply due to the differences in games! I just sorta blanket everything with my knowledge of a nl2000 reg, as opposed to a micro grinder.

If you think he overfolds a lot of his range that has us beat, then absoulutley go for it! Also, as a question, do you think you have fold equity against AKo here? I would be interested to know how tight regs at nl5 are against an oop 4-bet.

No definitely not. AK is always going to continue (i dont expect him to shove this deep) unless he is really dumb which i kinda doubt.

Also the reason for 4betting is that you can easily push them off better hands postflop. These regs are really scared of playing these uncommon situations and I expect him to assign me unrealistically tight range (ie KK+ and no bluffs) which he would be most likely 4betting with.

No probs with sharing different views from different player enviroments. More points of view, more knowldege!

GL

Would never 4 bet this kind of hand pre-flop without more info as villain stats looks like hes a reg and not 3 betting much but only 121 hands so not much info to go on. People should indeed 3 Bet wider on 6 MAX then on 9 MAX but his stats do not show that yet. A8 is a bad A with a bad kicker and no straight possibilities would rather peel a flop then 4 Bet and if I would 4 Bet would make it 3x as a minimum your still OOP. If you don't like playing this kind of hand OOP then folding to his 3 Bet becomes an option.

Flop sizing: we should not be judging our/villains holding strength by sizing esp. when we are talking about known regs /he knows me and I know him, we both know we are regs/
The sizing is due to the SPR and the stuff I mentioned above again.
I am betting my whole range with the same sizing otherwise that is a tell and I am getting easily exploited by the regs (there are some situations where I change this ofc

On flop I like the raise size of about 1/3 pot on this type of board (1 high card) as it should either scare of the villain or keep him interested. On a more wet board (flush + straight draws or two high cards) I would bet 2/3 pot so I vary but based on board texture not on hand or villain. Also when only 121 hands no balancing needed yet.

On turn would bet bigger to e.g. 35 BB which leads to a bit smaller shove on the river. Would def prefer a jam on the river as played.

Bet bigger on flop and turn and this hand would go alot better postflop than it did. Preflop it's decent with info on villain, A8suited oop is not a great hand to just calld the 3bet.

Ahoy said:

These regs are really scared of playing these uncommon situations and I expect him to assign me unrealistically tight range (ie KK+ and no bluffs) which he would be most likely 4betting with.

GL

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Careful here, most regs are scared because they know the realistic range is KK+ and no bluffs. But it only takes one note, auto or hand written us to ‘try’ to adapt. Reg vs reg this is going to happen. Also in position it's hard to make a mistake by calling wider than normally and that would be the 'noob' move we would do when trying to adapt.

if i'm reading this right you have the nuts, why not value bet the river because theoretically the villian should never call.

that said, i would have folded to the three bet.

Everything seems perfectly ok to me and i prefer a 4bet pre to a flat bvb and the river is a trivial shove were never doing anything else.Villain can have AK here as'well as hands like JJ QQ they picked up a turned flush draw with.But i dont really know why we are worrying about villains range on the river we just shove for value.If i was going to nit pick id say the 4bet should be around 22bb but it's not a huge issue.