$10 NLHE 6-max: QQ Turned set

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has Q Q

Hero raises to $0.30, fold, CO raises to $0.90, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95, 2 players) 8 3 J
Hero checks, CO bets $1.15, Hero calls $1.15

Turn: ($4.25, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, CO bets $2.65, Hero raises to $9.40 and is all-in, CO calls $6.75

River: ($23.05, 2 players) 4

Looks good to me.

I would have 4 bet called and AI preflop. In six max the value of your hand is greater than in 9 handed. Better to end the hand pre-flop than risk and Ace or King coming on the flop.

As played I would have check raised the flop. QQ is just a pair and there are many bad cards that can come. As played, I agree with the rest of the hand.

I am interested to see what Villain called with.

TheBigFinn said:

I would have 4 bet called and AI preflop. In six max the value of your hand is greater than in 9 handed. Better to end the hand pre-flop than risk and Ace or King coming on the flop.

As played I would have check raised the flop. QQ is just a pair and there are many bad cards that can come. As played, I agree with the rest of the hand.

I am interested to see what Villain called with.

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4bet/call on microstakes with QQ is just a mistake in my opinion on these positions without info. You mostly isolate yourself vs KK+. Sometimes you will flip vs AK, but often they will just call your 4bet.
Same goes with flop. If you raise it on EP vs CO on these board it's like isolate yourself again vs KK+, JJ, and hands like AKs in spades or AQs in spades. You are generally dead.You have 14%.

so I would call preflop to 3bet without information on these positions with QQ. I would have to know that villain 3bets a lot on CO vs EP to 4bet/call it profitable. on flop x/call, turn x/c, river x/decide. No reason to raise on spade card. Protection is not the point here in my opinion on very tight ranges. We get calls from flushes, KK, AA with fd. We don't know if villain 3bets here hands like AsJh as a bluff or he just calls it preflop. I believe CO vs EP on nl10 is more tight than not. Still we have 10 outs.


btw. if your argument about 4bet/call is that you don't want to see ace or king on flop than you clearly need to work on your postflop gameplans. Because it's a little fishy argument. "allin, don't want to see overcards" there are not many aces or kings in deck if your villain blocks it. Deck has more cards than 6-8 bad cards for your hand.

Misaki said:

4bet/call on microstakes with QQ is just a mistake in my opinion on these positions without info. You mostly isolate yourself vs KK+. Sometimes you will flip vs AK, but often they will just call your 4bet. Same goes with flop. If you raise it on EP vs CO on these board it's like isolate yourself again vs KK+, JJ, and hands like AKs in spades or AQs in spades. You are generally dead.You have 14%.

so I would call preflop to 3bet without information on these positions with QQ. I would have to know that villain 3bets a lot on CO vs EP to 4bet/call it profitable. on flop x/call, turn x/c, river x/decide. No reason to raise on spade card. Protection is not the point here in my opinion on very tight ranges. We get calls from flushes, KK, AA with fd. We don't know if villain 3bets here hands like AsJh as a bluff or he just calls it preflop. I believe CO vs EP on nl10 is more tight than not. Still we have 10 outs.

btw. if your argument about 4bet/call is that you don't want to see ace or king on flop than you clearly need to work on your post flop game plans. Because it's a little fishy argument. "allin, don't want to see overcards" there are not many aces or kings in deck if your villain blocks it. Deck has more cards than 6-8 bad cards for your hand.

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If you are not 4 betting QQ, what hands do you 4-bet? If you call, you are OOP the rest of the hand and have not define Villain's hand. Assuming her 3-betting range is 99+, A8s+ and AK, QQ is a 60/40 favorite. What is your plan for the flop? Do you check fold if an A or K comes? Given Villain's range, Hero is now an 80/20 dog to an A and a 55/45 dog to an A. 1/3 of the time an A or K will flop.

But suppose Hero gets a dry low flop. Hero checks to the raiser. Does a thinking Villain C-bet a flop that didn't hit his range without something?

TheBigFinn said:

Assuming her 3-betting range is 99+, A8s+ and AK, QQ is a 60/40 favorite.

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wtf. Where did you find these ranges?;o almost no one 3bets here 99 or TT . Not to mention about hands like A8s or A9s. Of course sometimes you will see a 3bet from A8s or A9s but with QQ we are ahead.
I 4bet here KK+, A5s-A4s. Sometimes I just call my all range vs a 3bet from unknown player. Even with aces.
if the ace or king comes on flop it's easy check/fold vs a cbet most of the time. You have to understand that poker is something more than single combinations of hands. You have to understand ranges construction and you have to know what part of range you play by check/call, check/raise, check/fold. On Axx boards I have the hands to call like AK, AQs, AJs and QQ can be easy fold.
on low boards of course QQ is check/call. Easy gameplan. Most of bad regs are too much focused on simple combinations of hands and they don't think on higher level. Of course on micro our main motto should be "fak gto" but still we can make our game make much easier to have good constructed ranges.
By 4betting QQ you isolate yourself most of the time vs a range which just beats you.

Misaki said:

wtf. Where did you find these ranges?;o almost no one 3bets here 99 or TT . Not to mention about hands like A8s or A9s. Of course sometimes you will see a 3bet from A8s or A9s but with QQ we are ahead.
I 4bet here KK+, A5s-A4s. Sometimes I just call my all range vs a 3bet from unknown player. Even with aces.
if the ace or king comes on flop it's easy check/fold vs a cbet most of the time. You have to understand that poker is something more than single combinations of hands. You have to understand ranges construction and you have to know what part of range you play by check/call, check/raise, check/fold. On Axx boards I have the hands to call like AK, AQs, AJs and QQ can be easy fold.
on low boards of course QQ is check/call. Easy gameplan. Most of bad regs are too much focused on simple combinations of hands and they don't think on higher level. Of course on micro our main motto should be "fak gto" but still we can make our game make much easier to have good constructed ranges.
By 4betting QQ you isolate yourself most of the time vs a range which just beats you.

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This is a $0.05/0.10 6-max game. It plays loose on a several levels. If you don't loosen up your 3-betting range, the field will roll over you. The 4-bet range KK+ ATs+ A5s-A4s is less than 3% and too tight for the game being played. It does play well against medium pairs in position, but it makes you calling range weak, forcing you to fold to aggression on most flops.

If you are confident Villain is playing that range then even calling QQ (or any medium pair) makes Hero a slight dog.

I'm not trying to play GTO, but if you are not 4 betting QQ what are you 4 betting, AA, KK only?

TheBigFinn said:

This is a $0.05/0.10 6-max game. It plays loose on a several levels.

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sorry but it's still a micro with many bad players who play really tight ranges comparing to higher limits. Especially on CO vs EP. I don't know how can you say it's loose play even if every higher limit is more loose and loose than nl10. Most of the guys just 3bet 4-5% on CO vs EP and you want to 4bet/call QQ on EP vs CO. good luck.

TheBigFinn said:

I'm not trying to play GTO, but if you are not 4 betting QQ what are you 4 betting, AA, KK only?

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I already said what I 4bet.

sorry, but it goes to nowhere. Argument about "we are oop, we don't know how his range looks like if we don't 4bet, we have to fold on many flops" tells me that you no nothing about defending your range, about gameplans and basic numbers and adjusting to them to not being unexploitable. Of course concepts are more proper to higher limits but can't believe 4bet/calling QQ will be more profitable than calling to a 3bet preflop on EP vs CO on still tight limit like nl10. Don't make this limit being a limit with good regs who knows what they doing because most of them are still "fish regs" who make a lot of mistakes. That's why they play nl10.

I'd just 4bet GII pre.
As played looks fine as well to me

Don't agree with some misaki said. no one ever 3bets 9s,Ts here vs utg is bad statement.
Personally I'd 3bet a ton of hands from CO vs UTG including Ts.

Alucard said:

Don't agree with some misaki said. no one ever 3bets 9s,Ts here vs utg is bad statement.

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I never said no one 3bets here with 9s, Ts. Ofc people do it but not that often as some of you think, because it's microstakes!
anyway it doesn't change much. VS our 4bet this range just fold anyway. So we mostly isolate ourselves vs a range which is ahead. What hands do you think will give us action vs our 4bet? if you 4bet here you will fold villain's range which we beat. Are you happy vs a 5bet? are you happy playing bigger pot (4bet pot oop) vs a range which beats us? some players just call aces and kings vs a 4bet from EP and even on low boards we aren't super happy.
and arguments about playing 3bet pot oop, or coming overcards is just fish thinking in my opinion. if you are afraid playing 3bet pots oop with a big hand as QQ vs a range which you beats and you prefer to fold weak part of villain's range and play vs a range which you don't beat and play just bigger pot then ok. Not my bussiness.

microstakes players are nitty af is another wrong statement. Play some 10NL zoom at stars & it'd easily contradict your statement.
If we GII vs AA,KK then fine. Because it makes us unexploitable.
And also we would be very likely flipping with AK,JJ,TT as well as some bad players lower pps, AQ,AJ which is +ev all day
If we tid preflop by 4betting it's completely fine because we win money uncontested.
Because it's not only TT+ 3bets there but also some suited broadways, that if they were to flop something good it'd be easy money for them. And also it'd be very hard to maneuver post flop on certain wettish boards.
So we 4 bet there most of the time & flat sometimes. imo

Guys you are all confusing 3 bet range and 4bet continuation range. If he folds everything worse, we def don’t want to 4bet then QQ for value it’s just too good for that. Instead we want to use speculative/bluff hands for that.

4bet ranges are super tight typically vs UTG even though 3bet ranges are somewhat wider (but not wide), for sure in 5NL zoom and year ago in 10NL too. If I remember correctly just while ago Alu was folding AK to 4bet, that is how tight it is sometimes.

Imo obviously, but I can’t understand why I would have understood this so wrong.

If hero has wider ranges and villain has stats to show that and villain adapts, then we can obviously widen our 4bet value range. For example with notes about Alus AI range def AK would be added without even thinking about it.

braveslice said:

Guys you are all confusing 3 bet range and 4bet continuation range. If he folds everything worse, we def don’t want to 4bet then QQ for value it’s just too good for that. Instead we want to use speculative/bluff hands for that.

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ye. they just don't see a difference between 3bet and 4bet pot.

Misaki said:

I never said no one 3bets here with 9s, Ts. Ofc people do it but not that often as some of you think, because it's microstakes!
anyway it doesn't change much. VS our 4bet this range just fold anyway. So we mostly isolate ourselves vs a range which is ahead. What hands do you think will give us action vs our 4bet? if you 4bet here you will fold villain's range which we beat. Are you happy vs a 5bet? are you happy playing bigger pot (4bet pot oop) vs a range which beats us? some players just call aces and kings vs a 4bet from EP and even on low boards we aren't super happy.
and arguments about playing 3bet pot oop, or coming overcards is just fish thinking in my opinion. if you are afraid playing 3bet pots oop with a big hand as QQ vs a range which you beats and you prefer to fold weak part of villain's range and play vs a range which you don't beat and play just bigger pot then ok. Not my business.

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braveslice said:

Guys you are all confusing 3 bet range and 4bet continuation range. If he folds everything worse, we def don’t want to 4bet then QQ for value it’s just too good for that. Instead we want to use speculative/bluff hands for that.

4bet ranges are super tight typically vs UTG even though 3bet ranges are somewhat wider (but not wide), for sure in 5NL zoom and year ago in 10NL too. If I remember correctly just while ago Alu was folding AK to 4bet, that is how tight it is sometimes.

Imo obviously, but I can’t understand why I would have understood this so wrong.

If hero has wider ranges and villain has stats to show that and villain adapts, then we can obviously widen our 4bet value range. For example with notes about Alus AI range def AK would be added without even thinking about it.

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I guess the question is, "What does one 4-bet with UTG in 6-max?" The answer is (IMHO), "It depends on what Villain 3-bets with in position in a 6-max game."

Not a fist pump call, but you have outs to the boat and quads.

TheBigFinn said:

I guess the question is, "What does one 4-bet with UTG in 6-max?" The answer is (IMHO), "It depends on what Villain 3-bets with in position in a 6-max game."

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Even though it’s true like you say, there are priorities and unbalanced ranges that should be considered too. The main reasons to bet are: 1. for value 2. bluff 3. protect equity. I would assume your reasoning here is to protect equity?

Unbalanced ranges are important factor too even though 3bet ranges are starting to resemble ‘balanced’ ranges, 4betting is not, this is partly also because 3betting vs UTG is the most non balanced for 3betting. Only selected few from regs are doing this also this is mostly because there really is not room for maneuver when 3betted when opening UTG without reasonable amount of data. Also hero does not need balanced ranges, if villain does not mind.

“The odds of a player being dealt AA are 221 to 1” When in micros (<25NL) UTG opens and faces 3bet it’s mostly for value, an average range might look like this (one possibility only): KK+,JJ,AJs+,A6s,AKo,KJo (4.4%) That is hero is facing AA or KK (if no blockers): 12 combos out of 58 combos -> Hero faces KK+ 20% of the time in tight games. Now against typical tight tag 3bets are typically only for value further increasing KK+ range.

“how to play QQ post flop OOP” Obviously I have no answer to this. Only thing I can say is that value of hand changes during the streets, there is no demand to win hand with good starting cards post flop and trying to force a win (aggressive or passive) is mostly a losing play. So only real advice I can give about it , is not worry too much about it at all. Also, to be honest, calling imo is to increase EV not turning losing play to winning one, if there are problems 4betting is not that bad play at all. But controversial one because bluffing with strong hands is considered wrong but we can always call it protecting equity + bluff and tad of value too combination and we should be ok lol. ( I have done it when I know that I don’t know how to play post against villain)

After studying about an hour QQ, UTG, vs 3bet from database I take it all back. I have no idea how to play it given what ever I do (call, 4bet) seems to results about same gain = break even. Surely it's profitable spot, so I have no saying how to play it.

Just got report from All players 5NL zoom pokertars
Called 3bet QQ: Position UTG, , 45 hands -> Win 1188bb/100
4bet QQ: UTG, QQ, Hands 23 -> Win 954bb/100.


I can’t see difference here, but surely a positive spot. Rare spot indeed though.

looks good to me, only losing to some kind of Axs, did you lose the hand?

I admittedly have played VERY little online 6-max cash in the last 23-4 years. I haven't grinded it seriously since about 2013, and at that time I was crushing 25nl, beating 50nl, and shotting 100nl (on USA-facing sites).

QQ never seemed like a close spot to me. Yes poker has progressed in 4 years. Yes the microstakes get harder every year.

However, it's getting a little absurd if we think JJ is insta folding to a 4bet after 3betting, AND that our 4bet range should be KK+/A5s/A4s only.

It's a situation where I feel like we can't have it both ways. Yes, 3bet range is not the same as a 4bet continuance range. But unless their 3bet range is only like JJ+/AK+ to begin with and they gii with QQ+ then we should have more bluffs if their continuance range is QQ+ vs a 4bet.

I still dispute whether their continuing range vs a 4bet is really just QQ+, but even if it IS, and they 3bet JJ+/AK, they have 40 combos, and 22 of them are going away to a 4bet apparently.

Now how about if they REALLY 3bet TT+/AQ+ and continue with QQ+ to a 4bet. Welp, that's 62 combos, and they're only continuing with 18 combos?

LET'S BLUFF THEIR FACES OFF RIGHT NOW. Seriously, what is the problem? If we only 4bet KK+/A5s-A4s then it's a hugely wasted opportunity cause when they 3bet they're apparently auto-waving the white flag 71% of the time.

But tbh I sincerely doubt they are 1) 3betting that tight or 2) continuing so tightly against a 4bet. Some players definitely do, but I doubt it's the true norm at 10nl today.

If anyone has some stats on player pool tendencies when it comes to this, it would be super helpful just so we can put this to rest a bit. But in any case, as played pre, I like the postflop line LOL.

Scourrge said:

If anyone has some stats on player pool tendencies when it comes to this, it would be super helpful just so we can put this to rest a bit.

Click to expand...

Well I got this kind of results that hopefully give you some value to make analysis. This is from zoom 5NL, regular 6 max is wider and I would guess 10NL is also a tad wider.

UTG opens 23836 hands, eff stack 98bb+ has 4bet opportunity 3924 times, 4bets 349 times, saws flop 217 times after 4betting.

Added:. 10NL zoom: UTG opens 7459 hands, eff stack 98bb+ has 4bet opportunity 1312 times, 4bets 115 times, saws flop 73 times after 4betting.

So to work further with NL5 ranges:
UTG faces 3bet 3924/23836 = 16.46% of time, 1-0.965^5 = 0.1632 -> 3bet range 3.5%
So hero from UTG is facing 3bet range of 3.5%, this could be for example (not sure and maybe not value heavy enough): KK+, TT, AQs+, A5s, JTs, KJo

Against this 3bet range QQ has: 57%

Against 4bet villain calls or gets it in 217/349 = 62%, leaving a range of 217/349*3.5% = 2.2%

Continuation range vs 4bet is 2.2%. If this is calculated correctly.

This might present a range something like 2.26% [KK+, TT, AQs+, JTs] where we are flipping with 49% equity (minus rake).

But we also need to remember that against tight tag, he has only pure value anymore and aggressive player plays 2x - 3x these ranges surely.

what a heated discussion, great responds guys i wasn't expecting it for this hand

I'll post two hands just to prove a point that ranges aren't that tight regardless of micros or not.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 166.3 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 32.50, 3Bet Preflop: 18.75, Hands: 42)
SB: 33.4 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
BB: 211.2 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 15.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
Hero (UTG): 228.7 BB
MP: 100 BB
CO: 102.2 BB (VPIP: 21.00, PFR: 16.00, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 101)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Qd Qs
Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 11 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 28 BB, BTN calls 17 BB

Flop : (57.5 BB, 2 players) 7h 6s 3c
Hero bets 33 BB, BTN calls 33 BB

Turn : (123.5 BB, 2 players) 8h
Hero bets 167.7 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 105.3 BB and is all-in

River : (334.1 BB, 2 players) Ad

Hero shows Qd Qs (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 78%, Flop 73%, Turn 18%)

BTN shows 7c 8c (Two Pair, Eights and Sevens)
(Pre 22%, Flop 27%, Turn 82%)

BTN wins 319.1 BB


--------------------------------------------------


PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 26)
SB: 152.9 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
BB: 114.6 BB (VPIP: 11.76, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
UTG: 163.8 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
Hero (MP): 109 BB
CO: 103.3 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kh Kc
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 25 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

Flop : (51.5 BB, 2 players) 8s Js 5c
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn : (51.5 BB, 2 players) 8h
Hero bets 17 BB, BTN calls 17 BB

River : (85.5 BB, 2 players) 6c
Hero bets 67 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 58 BB and is all-in

Hero shows Kh Kc (Two Pair, Kings and Eights)
(Pre 81%, Flop 80%, Turn 91%)

BTN shows 9h 6h (Two Pair, Eights and Sixes)
(Pre 19%, Flop 20%, Turn 9%)

Hero wins 192.4 BB



"People play nitty at micros" just don't add up

pokerstars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 97 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
SB: 330.6 BB (VPIP: 24.29, PFR: 21.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 72)
BB: 190.5 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
UTG: 100.7 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
MP: 51.4 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
Hero (CO): 153.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ah Jh
UTG raises to 2 BB, MP calls 2 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, SB calls 9.5 BB, fold, UTG calls 8 BB, MP calls 8 BB

Flop : (51 BB, 5 players) As Td Th
SB checks, UTG checks, MP bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold, UTG calls 10 BB


mmm okay tight ranges. One definitely has aces. the other definitely has Quad Ts!! I don't know what the other one is doing