$10 NLHE 6-max: Preflop 88 in SB vs AGGRO Stealer

R

rhombus

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Think my 3Bet was too small should have been $1 but when 4Bet whats default play against stealer.
  • Auto Fold.
  • Think Call is bad idea unless you shove on low flop
  • 5Bet and Call Shove
  • Other
poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $10 (100 bb)
BB: $8.18 (81.8 bb)
UTG: $18.57 (185.7 bb)
MP: $13.33 (133.3 bb)
CO: $10 (100 bb)30/27 AG42% 75 hands
BTN: $10.15 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8
spade4.gif
8
diamond4.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $0.25, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.85, BB folds, CO raises to $1.90, Hero ??,
 
alipalip

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75 hand is not too much. Under 300 hand samples it's unknown for me,and against unknown I fold 88 against 4bet oop
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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shove or fold... looks aggro enough to be raising a lot of Ax hands and a few other marginals. enjoy the varience
 
IPlay

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Sizing pre is fine but the most important stat here is his 3b%. What is it? Judging by his AG he has not been playing too crazy postflop and could have a high VPIP due to a small sample of good hands so I'd probably just fold here unless he has been 3 betting like a monkey. Probably GII with JJ+/AK
 
6

6bet me

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Your 3bet sizing is perfect. Your options after you get 4bet are to shove or fold. You can never flat-call this 4bet out of position. Whether you shove or fold will depend on how widely your opponent is 4betting in steal spots: if he's 4bet bluffing a lot, then you should 5bet shove this, but if he's only 4betting a premium range like {TT+, AK}, then I'd recommend folding.

Based upon his VPIP/PFR, he seems fairly loose, but I'd want to know his 3bet/4bet stats just to make sure.
 
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seventhsense

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Your hand sample isn't large enough. I play around 21/18 and over 100 hands that can vary between 15/10 and 40/30, just as an example. The comment above asks about his 3 bet and 4 bet but these stats aren't relevant with 75 hands. It will take thousands of hands for a true 4 bet stat to emerge.

You either jam or fold here. His 4 bet is very polarised. I think QQ and JJ flat very often at this limit, probably AK too. So you're looking at AA, KK and bluffs most of the time. That makes it pretty close. Against an unknown, I would just let it go this time.
 
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rhombus

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Your 3bet sizing is perfect. Your options after you get 4bet are to shove or fold. You can never flat-call this 4bet out of position. Whether you shove or fold will depend on how widely your opponent is 4betting in steal spots: if he's 4bet bluffing a lot, then you should 5bet shove this, but if he's only 4betting a premium range like {TT+, AK}, then I'd recommend folding.

Based upon his VPIP/PFR, he seems fairly loose, but I'd want to know his 3bet/4bet stats just to make sure.

Thought 3Bet sizing was supposed to be about 2.5-3.5 In position and about 4 when OOP.

As for his 3Bet it was 6

I did end up 4betting to 5.80 they shoved and had AA
 
IPlay

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Thought 3Bet sizing was supposed to be about 2.5-3.5 In position and about 4 when OOP.

As for his 3Bet it was 6

I did end up 4betting to 5.80 they shoved and had AA

Yeah with a 6% 3bet over this sample that is probably 1 3 bet. I think you looked at his VPIP and over analyzed. If he isn't 3 betting a lot chances are he isn't 4 betting light.
 
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rhombus

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Yeah with a 6% 3bet over this sample that is probably 1 3 bet. I think you looked at his VPIP and over analyzed. If he isn't 3 betting a lot chances are he isn't 4 betting light.

OK Thanks.

So in these kind of situations best to look at 3 Bet stats, when thinking of 4Bet of Fold or 5Bet or Fold, although downside you need alot more stats to give an accurate 3Bet/4Bet stat
 
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seventhsense

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Thought 3Bet sizing was supposed to be about 2.5-3.5 In position and about 4 when OOP.

As for his 3Bet it was 6

I did end up 4betting to 5.80 they shoved and had AA

5 bet you mean? 5 bet should be a shove. $5.80 means you aren't folding anyway so just GII if that's what your plan was.
 
TimovieMan

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His 3-bet% needs to be over 10% to make the play here, imo (and then a shove is your only real option other than a fold). His fold to 4-bet stats are going to be important as well, despite the sample size.
 
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seventhsense

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His 3-bet% needs to be over 10% to make the play here, imo (and then a shove is your only real option other than a fold). His fold to 4-bet stats are going to be important as well, despite the sample size.

You think a fold to 4 bet will be useful over 75 hands?

While it is good that you are paying attention to all information, do not overuse the HUD while under 100 hands. Especially to argue stacking off with 88.
 
John A

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Why are you 3-betting pre here though? If you're calling suited junk out of the blinds, you don't think you can play 88? I understand you think he's aggro, but personally if I'm 3-betting in this spot, it's to get it in if I'm 4-bet.
 
IPlay

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Why are you 3-betting pre here though? If you're calling suited junk out of the blinds, you don't think you can play 88? I understand you think he's aggro, but personally if I'm 3-betting in this spot, it's to get it in if I'm 4-bet.

I was honestly on the fence about flatting pre. Are we only flatting middle pairs like 77-1010 or should we be flatting 22-1010 against this villain? I've felt unsure about my play with 22-77 hands out of the SB lately and how to play them vs what villain types.
 
Aces2w1n

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me personally know the more Ax in his range or wider he 3bets the more we can justify gii here.
if we just flat we have a big pot and we are going to be put i awful spots.

we wont have top pair much prolly like 35% of the time and usually have 1 or 2 overs... so flatting pre to fold flop isnt a great plan right

if we can shove here get some folds and flip situations its def +ev... we will run into higher pockets sure but not enough to be scared against this villain

we might actually get folds from him with hands that beat us like 9s 10s js possibly
 
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seventhsense

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me personally know the more Ax in his range or wider he 3bets the more we can justify gii here.
if we just flat we have a big pot and we are going to be put i awful spots.

we wont have top pair much prolly like 35% of the time and usually have 1 or 2 overs... so flatting pre to fold flop isnt a great plan right

Hero is the 3 bettor.

They're talking about flatting vs 3 betting.

Flatting the 4 bet is a huge no no.
 
Romario2223

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vs unknown I fold in this situation
 
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Ignoring rake, you're getting about 2.7 to 1 pot odds on a call. You guys will have $8.10 left behind once you get to the flop if you call the additional $1.05. You flop a set about 11.8% of the time. All in all, I don't think that you have the correct combination of pot and implied odds to call here against a villain you only have a 75 hand sample on.

I wouldn't 5bet. You will fold out almost everything worse and most likely get called by better and AK (which you're only a 54.5 to 45.5 favorite to). I highly doubt he's 4betting TT/JJ here, probably just flats IP, so there's not much to gain by trying to bluff IMO - he probably only folds his 4bet bluffs.

I don't mind the 3bet sizing. We don't mind folds to pick up the pot right there, and we also expect to get called a lot since V has position on us, and when V does call we are certainly ahead of his range. However when 4bet, I think we can just fold. I think if you have JJ-99 here instead of 88, it's definitely a more confusing scenario. Not sure if there's ever an argument to be made for flatting the 4bet OOP but I doubt it unless we are deep. I think that I might fold 99 as well and 5bet JJ. TT is somewhere in the middle.
 
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