$10 NLHE 6-max: Pls critique this 88 hand vs. loose player

This was 5 handed (one empty seat at table) at 10NL.

I had 8s8h on CO. UTG limps. I raise him to 40c. Everyone folds around except SB who calls. After about 30 hands at the table, my impression of him was one of a typical loose beginner who defends his blinds a lot.

The flop is T44 with two hearts.

He leads out with a 35c bet into the $1 pot, I raise to $1.15 as the bet felt weak and I wanted to take it down if I could right there because there are so many overcards.

Turn is Qd. He checks. I thought about firing another barrel but checked as I didn't want to get raised off the hand.

River is Qc. He checks again, I was fairly certain I had the best hand here, but he may call with ace high or 55-77, nothing else, and again I didn't wanna get raised off the hand. So I checked.

What would you do differently? Way too passive?

I think it's fine, if you think he'll call with A-high go ahead and bet. Mostly I'd bet the turn though.

i think its gross. Why are you raising the flop exactly? Sounds like you're saying you have the best hand yet you're trying to turn it into a bluff.

I would agree with a flop raise if you felt villain would call with 77-55,33-22,AQs-AJs,KJs+,QJs,AQo-AJo,KJo+,QJo and folds 99,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T9s,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo but obviously this makes no sense.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know about your raise. Maybe if it was a bit smaller(something that more of those weaker hands could call with) I might be ok with it like .75-.85. However, I think most of the time I'm just calling his flop bet

The reason I raised the flop big was that I didn't want to just call and not know where I stand by the turn. I was hoping to take it right there. And if he calls with nothing, and hand is checked down, then at least I got some extra value out of the flop. If he 3bets me, then I lay it down.

If I just call and he fires another barrel on the turn, which this guy is capable of doing with anything, (and I saw him bet and raise with nothing) then I still don't know where I am.

Do you flat with the top end of your range (AT+) here? Do you check turn with AA? If not, then don't do it here either.

blueskies said:

The reason I raised the flop big was that I didn't want to just call and not know where I stand by the turn. I was hoping to take it right there. And if he calls with nothing, and hand is checked down, then at least I got some extra value out of the flop. If he 3bets me, then I lay it down.

If I just call and he fires another barrel on the turn, which this guy is capable of doing with anything, (and I saw him bet and raise with nothing) then I still don't know where I am.

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You're raising for info basically then right? That's not good.

You say you don't know where you're at but I think you can figure it out. Start by giving villain a range that he donk bets the flop with and then reasses on the turn.

So tell me what range do you put him on when he donk bets the flop

bgomez89 said:

You're raising for info basically then right? That's not good.

You say you don't know where you're at but I think you can figure it out. Start by giving villain a range that he donk bets the flop with and then reasses on the turn.

So tell me what range do you put him on when he donk bets the flop

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From previous experience at micros, a small donk bet usually means he's on a draw (in this case, only flush dr) or he has a weak PP like 22, 33, 55-77. Possibly 99. A hand like 9T, JT, QT, KT is possibly too. Though by the river, QT is out for sure. For this particular guy, he could be doing it with two overcards.

The thing is, although I felt I was ahead, I just wasn't sure because this guy is not predictable. I was afraid of betting and getting shoved on, which I've seen him done with a weak hand.

If he shoves with weak hands then call wider.

Pretty good range to give him IMO. Also include some 4x hands in there but for the most part I think you feel you're ahead.

Now when you put in that raise to 1.15, what of the previous range calls and what folds?

I don't think this particular guy is folding a flush draw or a lower PP on that board. He may fold a hand like AJ/AQ, though that's no certainty given how loose he had been up to that point. I think he'd fold KJ/QJ types. (He really could have had anything the way he was playing)

blueskies said:

I don't think this particular guy is folding a flush draw or a lower PP on that board. He may fold a hand like AJ/AQ, though that's no certainty given how loose he had been up to that point. I think he'd fold KJ/QJ types. (He really could have had anything the way he was playing)

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So was it a raise for value or a raise for information because I've looked over the thread any you don't seem to be clear why you raised the flop. From sentance bolded it sounds like a raise for value if you think he calls with worse but earlier you stated it was to find out where you were at.

As played I don't mind a small bet on river for value. We may get called by Tx, 22-33, 44-99 and maybe AJ. More combos that we beat that may call on a blank river so I don't mind a small bet for value. The top end of villians range would raise not check the river I believe.

blueskies said:

I don't think this particular guy is folding a flush draw or a lower PP on that board. He may fold a hand like AJ/AQ, though that's no certainty given how loose he had been up to that point. I think he'd fold KJ/QJ types. (He really could have had anything the way he was playing)

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Cool. Ok then you're raising for value. I agree that if you believe villain calls with the range you gave him then your raise was correct.

However, I really can't believe that he wouldn't fold those small pocket pairs. Any particular reason you think he would?

baudib1 said:

Do you flat with the top end of your range (AT+) here? Do you check turn with AA? If not, then don't do it here either.

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^^^ This


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BlueNowhere said:

So was it a raise for value or a raise for information because I've looked over the thread any you don't seem to be clear why you raised the flop. From sentance bolded it sounds like a raise for value if you think he calls with worse but earlier you stated it was to find out where you were at.

As played I don't mind a small bet on river for value. We may get called by Tx, 22-33, 44-99 and maybe AJ. More combos that we beat that may call on a blank river so I don't mind a small bet for value. The top end of villians range would raise not check the river I believe.

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Can't it be for both? I.e. he may call with worst hands, but if he raises, then my 88 are probably no good.

Yes, I think I should have bet one more there, so I was a bit mad at myself for this hand. I went through a long terrible run for a few months over the summer/fall and became very passive after that. I’ve bounced back and am at all time peak winnings now, but I still can’t shake the timidity off. Missing out on value in situations like above.

blueskies said:

Can't it be for both? I.e. he may call with worst hands, but if he raises, then my 88 are probably no good.

Yes, I think I should have bet one more there, so I was a bit mad at myself for this hand. I went through a long terrible run for a few months over the summer/fall and became very passive after that. I’ve bounced back and am at all time peak winnings now, but I still can’t shake the timidity off. Missing out on value in situations like above.

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I don't think it should be a raise for information. Do you think the max ev line here is to put another $0.80 in pot? If he folds we no longer get any value form what is probably ahead. If he raises we have to fold and throw away another $0.80. If he calls we find out nothing really and now the pot is bloated. I just don't think raising accomplishes everything.

Stop saying you're raising for info by Gobbo

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/why-you-betting-189182/

Stop worrying about classifying bets and just bet.

Recognize that not only does your opponent have a range (that is often nebulous), you, too, have a range.

Recognize that some turn cards are better to barrel than others.

baudib1 said:

Stop worrying about classifying bets and just bet.

Recognize that not only does your opponent have a range (that is often nebulous), you, too, have a range.

Recognize that some turn cards are better to barrel than others.

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Reason I was asking him what each bet was is because I don't think he had a plan of why he was betting. He stated he was raising for information and if that was his motive for betting it's bad.

classifying bets is important. You can't just bet for funsies and expect to crush

TWO-WAY BETS EXIST! Merging is real.

lol@range merging at 5nl...

All you need to beat 5NL is Baluga and to value bet thin.

Merging is completely pointless at 5NL

Why is it pointless? Are there not spots where people's ranges comprise mostly bluffcatchers? Are 5 NLers capable of making bad calls or bad folds?

1) player pool is large enough that we don't need to bother with range merging, its good for metagame but we only sit with most villians once.
2) It relies on him putting us on a polarised range, at 5NL they think of hands and not ranges.
3) we're value betting, not range merging