$10 NLHE 6-max: Please comment on this train wreck of a Turn CheckRaise

RodneyC86

RodneyC86

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/15/1.4

I gotta admit, I was kinda tilty when I decided to pull this shit. Basically I was just trying to 3-bet to resteal and that's that. Then I decided to C-bet,fail again. Then I thought i picked up so much equity versus his Q-range that I felt the need to try to get him to fold. Opinions? Should I have just lead the turn? I'll post results later

Btw, I was running a tightish 18/17/5.5/3

122 hands on opponent

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2202142
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $10.00
SB: $10.00
Hero (BB): $11.14
UTG: $12.28
MP: $11.90
CO: $4.64

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J :spade: K :club:
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BTN calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.05) 4 :spade: 6 :club: Q :club: (2 players)
Hero bets $1, BTN calls $1

Turn: ($4.05) T :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.70, Hero raises to $9.14 all in, BTN calls $5.30 all in

River: ($20.05) 7 :spade: (2 players - 2 are all in)
 
dooydoo

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i would just call preflop. You dominate his range and by calling keep in the dominated hands. Look to float and xr a lot of flops.

id resteal with hands like 67s or K8s or T7s etc. Lesser equity hands.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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wtf at pre, this hands pretty bad but you probably already get that. :)

preflops a flat > 3bet lol 2.5x

turn x/rs not that bad but doubt he bet folds anything on that turn so just barrel I think, flop is fine.
 
RodneyC86

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wtf at pre, this hands pretty bad but you probably already get that. :)

preflops a flat > 3bet lol 2.5x

turn x/rs not that bad but doubt he bet folds anything on that turn so just barrel I think, flop is fine.

I just realized I kinda stop flatting much at all, especially OOP, leaky huh?

Think I need to construct a flitting range against a button steal against a standard reg.
 
RodneyC86

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wtf at pre, this hands pretty bad but you probably already get that. :)

preflops a flat > 3bet lol 2.5x

turn x/rs not that bad but doubt he bet folds anything on that turn so just barrel I think, flop is fine.

Yeah I don't know why I 2.5 there. Normally I'd make it 1.10 against a x4 pfr
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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KJ definitely fits in there.

prbably heard this already but vs villains that fold to 3bets a lot, 3b polarised (nuts or nothing) instead of merged for thin preflop value with hands like KJ.

+ you should make it bigger
 
RodneyC86

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The opponent called and showed down AcKs, leaving him the 7 to 1 favourite despite holding only Ace High though with a nut FD, a gutshot nut SD and two overs! I guess he was comitted to call just with the flush draw alone.

Man this hand feels pretty epic because both of us went in with just high cards haha
 
John A

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Flat or 3-bet larger pre. And despite what some people may tell you, it's not a hand you should auto flat because you dominate his range. There's other things to consider such as how confident you are playing against this opponent OOP. 3-betting isn't bad if you're going to call and not play well post flop. Ideally you want to flat, but what is +EV for some can quickly become -EV for others. So know your game.

As played, bet the flop larger. Just bet the turn as you don't really have any FE versus your opponents betting range.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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yeah you dominate his range but do you dominate the range he calls a 3bet with?

most likely not.. 3betting because we play bad OOP seems kinda bad as well tbf, we get a bunch of folds but when we're flatted/4bet it sucks.

people have different games and in that different strengths/leaks, but for 95% of people against this villain flatting is the best option.
 
RodneyC86

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What do you guys think his thought process was when he called? He just simply has enough odds? He's gotta put me on a made hand right?
 
dooydoo

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he put in half his stack already so he has to put in $5 more. With 2 overs, gutter and fd he probably convinced himself he has odds.
 
John A

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yeah you dominate his range but do you dominate the range he calls a 3bet with?

most likely not.. 3betting because we play bad OOP seems kinda bad as well tbf, we get a bunch of folds but when we're flatted/4bet it sucks.

people have different games and in that different strengths/leaks, but for 95% of people against this villain flatting is the best option.

Respectfully completely disagree. I wrote about this the other day actually, and it's something that went into my book because is such a bad widely accepted misnomer imho. I literally wrote over 20 pages on blind play and broke it into "learning blind" play, and optimal blind play. When you 3-bet:

1) Most of the time your opponent is folding pre-flop, and you're picking up those bets without a flop.
2) When your opponent does call, you have initiative, and continuation bets in re-raised pots at micro and most smaller stake games will have more respect.
3) You're not crushed when your opponent does decide to call. You're maybe at a 40/60 equity disadvantage (using KJo as an example), and you have initiative. If your opponent calls with KQ, and you both whiff, most of the time a c-bet will take down the pot and make your opponent fold a hand where they have a huge equity advantage. You don't have to get pot stuck if you only flop top pair (depending on your hand).

Now of course if your opponent has a really low fold to 3-bet, or it's someone who is extremely tricky, likes to float, etc... then 3-betting isn't your first option. But I can tell you with 100% confidence that for a lot of players, especially at these stakes, it's better to 3-bet, then call or fold because most players aren't playing ideally OOP. This also comes from having coached a lot of players in over 8 years and I see what marginal winners struggle with.

Ideally like I said, you want to learn to flat, but you can't learn and continue to grow in poker if you don't have a bankroll. So you need to take smart steps to grow your bankroll and expand your game, rather than take every line that is "most optimal" because good players take those lines. 3-betting is still +EV, and it's better than calling and losing a bigger pot or playing hit or fold poker (which a lot of players at these stakes do).

Just an FYI... I've looked at all of the stats for winning regs, marginal winning players, and losing players. Most people struggle with flatting these hands OOP except for better winning regulars. Right now as we speak, Leak Buster is grinding 50 million + micro stake hands of no-limit to generate updated ranges. And I've looked through data in the previous 3 years at 100 million + each when we updated stats the previous two times that proved my point above.

There are a ton of lines and plays I take or make that I wouldn't advocate other players to take. Even though I know it's more optimal, it won't be +EV for a lot of players that don't have a really firm grasp of hand ranges, equity, and how to properly exploit different player types.
 
M

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John what I get from that post is that you advocate taking a sub optimal line as opposed to the most profitable play because we dont have a firm grasp on how to play the most optimal line. Now my question is, if we avoid playing the situations now how do you expect us to get better at them?

Like if you have a problem in your game fix it now before it becomes a habit and then your stuck moving up with this exploitable leak that others will surely take advantage of.

Ideally like I said, you want to learn to flat, but you can't learn and continue to grow in poker if you don't have a bankroll. So you need to take smart steps to grow your bankroll and expand your game, rather than take every line that is "most optimal" because good players take those lines.

This makes no sense to me. You grow your bankroll and get better by learning and taking the most optimal lines. When you take less profitable lines, you lose money. DUCY?
 
John A

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You work on understanding hand ranges, equity, exploitative play, etc.. that can happen in other situations than this one. It's having a plan for how you become a better player, rather than just watching some training videos on a training site, and saying, "oh, this player does this with that, so I should do that". That's a primary reason people continue to lose when watching good players play. They really don't have a full understanding behind them. It's higher EV to flat this hand because this is what X player says. You need to have a full understanding of why a play is better, and the tools to execute it.

You don't just start 4-betting someone because other people do it. You have to understand WHY you're doing something. I guarantee that if you ask most micro stake players why you should flat KJ, they might give you one or two reasons why, but they don't fully understand. So you work on the other tools you need to make that the highest EV line, and in the meantime, you take a slightly less EV line that is still profitable. It's the same reasoning why you tell people to play tight TAG poker at first, and then learn to play slightly more LAG. Why? Because slightly LAG to LAG is more profitable than playing tight TAG poker. Sure, you can start out playing LAG, but that's probably not the best plan.

If you have an unlimited bankroll, then just throw yourself in and try and learn on the fly. Most people don't have this luxury though.
 
John A

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Very next thread I look at, and not trying to embarass anyone so hopefully it's not an issue that I use this example:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/10-nlhe-6-max-kq-fd-223510/

He's trying to balance his range? Why? He probably heard someone talking about it in a deuces cracked video (his hand converter), and thought he should be doing it. But he doesn't understand why he should be doing it, or he wouldn't be doing it at 10NL.

I read this over and over again in forums.

Any ways, in a few more days I'll have some recent data from the major poker sites all crunched and ready to go and I can show you the bb/100 difference when marginal winning and losing players flat hands like these from the blinds versus 3-bet.
 
M

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ok john. I agree with you on ppl doing things they dont understand but hence my post used the word learn etc. Not mimic
 
John A

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ok john. I agree with you on ppl doing things they dont understand but hence my post used the word learn etc. Not mimic

Yes, and there's an intelligent order to how you should learn things. If you're learning to be a surgeon you don't just grab a scalpel and dig in. It's the same reason like I said, that you play much tighter when you first play poker, and then you slowly open your range up. Why do you do that? Because there's other skills you need to learn first otherwise you'd just be handing over your bankroll. Playing tight can still be profitable, but it's not the highest EV approach in poker. 3-betting KJo against an open button is still a profitable line. It's not as profitable as flatting against most opponents/situations however.
 
Aleksei

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i would just call preflop. You dominate his range and by calling keep in the dominated hands. Look to float and xr a lot of flops.

id resteal with hands like 67s or K8s or T7s etc. Lesser equity hands.

wtf at pre, this hands pretty bad but you probably already get that. :)

preflops a flat > 3bet lol 2.5x

turn x/rs not that bad but doubt he bet folds anything on that turn so just barrel I think, flop is fine.
imo you shouldn't really be flatting a big raise OOP at all. You're at a heavy postflop disadvantage OOP so with pot odds that poor you should be defending very few hands, thus the hands you do defend will have good equity and you need to have initiative to somewhat negate your postflop disadvantage (which seriously is severe -- overall you can't really expect to realize more than 70% of your postflop equity OOP unless your villain is really really terrible), so you should pretty much 3bet your entire defend range facing a button 4x from the blinds (and this goes double if you're the SB since you have worse odds and you REALLY don't want the BB squeezing you).

That said 3bet sizing's way too small here. We're looking to end the hand right here right now so we need to discourage flatting IP which requires a huge raise -- 3x at least.
 
Aleksei

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Respectfully completely disagree. I wrote about this the other day actually, and it's something that went into my book because is such a bad widely accepted misnomer imho. I literally wrote over 20 pages on blind play and broke it into "learning blind" play, and optimal blind play. When you 3-bet:

1) Most of the time your opponent is folding pre-flop, and you're picking up those bets without a flop.
2) When your opponent does call, you have initiative, and continuation bets in re-raised pots at micro and most smaller stake games will have more respect.
3) You're not crushed when your opponent does decide to call. You're maybe at a 40/60 equity disadvantage (using KJo as an example), and you have initiative. If your opponent calls with KQ, and you both whiff, most of the time a c-bet will take down the pot and make your opponent fold a hand where they have a huge equity advantage. You don't have to get pot stuck if you only flop top pair (depending on your hand).

Now of course if your opponent has a really low fold to 3-bet, or it's someone who is extremely tricky, likes to float, etc... then 3-betting isn't your first option. But I can tell you with 100% confidence that for a lot of players, especially at these stakes, it's better to 3-bet, then call or fold because most players aren't playing ideally OOP. This also comes from having coached a lot of players in over 8 years and I see what marginal winners struggle with.

Ideally like I said, you want to learn to flat, but you can't learn and continue to grow in poker if you don't have a bankroll. So you need to take smart steps to grow your bankroll and expand your game, rather than take every line that is "most optimal" because good players take those lines. 3-betting is still +EV, and it's better than calling and losing a bigger pot or playing hit or fold poker (which a lot of players at these stakes do).

Just an FYI... I've looked at all of the stats for winning regs, marginal winning players, and losing players. Most people struggle with flatting these hands OOP except for better winning regulars. Right now as we speak, Leak Buster is grinding 50 million + micro stake hands of no-limit to generate updated ranges. And I've looked through data in the previous 3 years at 100 million + each when we updated stats the previous two times that proved my point above.

There are a ton of lines and plays I take or make that I wouldn't advocate other players to take. Even though I know it's more optimal, it won't be +EV for a lot of players that don't have a really firm grasp of hand ranges, equity, and how to properly exploit different player types.
I agree with all of this, but in my opinion there's another factor in play: You should not flat OOP in this spot simply because you should not be defending very much at all in this spot. vs a 4x there's really not immediate need to defend since you have to fold like 80% of hands for Villain to autoprofit from 4xing every button. Therefore given you're at a disadvantage you should be defending very very tight, which means that your range is gonna be substantially ahead of your villain's when you defend, which means you should 3bet rather than flat just to immediately punish Villain for his silly huge open.

Really, imo you should only be flatting OOP reasonably wide vs a minraise, because if you don't Villain can insta-profit from minraising every button (I use that tactic to great success vs a lot of people who fold their blinds too readily, myself).
 
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