$10 NLHE 6-max: Playing top pair middle kicker vs. barrel off

N

noahband

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Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 25.06, PFR: 18.23, 3Bet Preflop: 6.27, hands: 913)
Hero (UTG): 121.9 BB
MP: 52.3 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
CO: 140.4 BB (VPIP: 24.16, PFR: 16.98, 3Bet Preflop: 6.08, Hands: 9,494)
BTN: 222.7 BB (VPIP: 24.22, PFR: 17.97, 3Bet Preflop: 13.21, Hands: 134)
SB: 61.1 BB (VPIP: 31.77, PFR: 10.87, 3Bet Preflop: 2.54, Hands: 289)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J Q

Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 7.3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 4.8 BB

Flop: (16.1 BB, 2 players) 9 3 Q
Hero checks, BTN bets 7.6 BB, Hero calls 7.6 BB

Turn: (31.3 BB, 2 players) T
Hero checks, BTN bets 14.9 BB, Hero calls 14.9 BB

River: (61.1 BB, 2 players) K
Hero checks, BTN bets 58.1 BB, Hero raises to 92.1 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 34 BB

Really not sure how to play these sorts of hands. Realizing now that I don't think I should've raised the river, as a straight obviously isn't a bluff but it's hard to be called by worse. What do you guys think?
 
Nathan Smith

Nathan Smith

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I like your river check raise - villain played this like an over pair (AA or KK) which may call your jam. You only lose to AJ - I would take the thin value against the rest of his range. What was the final result?
 
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TJH90

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I think if you know he could be bluffing then the check calls make sense. Let him fire bluffs off. If he did have a hand then only AJ beats you on the river. I think he may have AK or KK.
 
Misaki

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Really not sure how to play these sorts of hands.

if you don't know how to play them just fold it preflop because QJs is like borderliner here and could be a call if you know that BU 3bet here a lot of PPs, suited connectors etc. After 134 hands you don't have that info.

as played river raise doesn't make any sense. you split here or you are behind.
 
Misaki

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Now why should he fold a straight on the river?

edited;) didn't notice that he a hit straight. I was too much focused on preflop where he made a mistake in my opinion.
 
TheBigFinn

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For starters I would not raise QJs UTG, even 6-handed. Hero will hit either a J or Q only 1/3 of the time and when he does, he is not sure he is ahead, making for difficult post flop play.

Calling the button raise is also loose. Hero is a 65/35 dog to a 5% 3-bet raise. and 55/45 dog to a 7% 3-bet range. This particular player is very loose with a 13.2 3-bet. and Hero is 50/50 to her 3-bet range and Hero shouldn't fold. This might be a spot to turn Hero;s hand into a bluff and 4-bet fold, but once opened must be called.

Hero gets a dream flop, a pair of queens with no over cards making him a 65/35 favorite. The check is perfect. Villain will C-bet a large percentage of the time and Hero is ahead. Not sure I like the call. If Hero re-raises he will be called by flush draws and over cards. It depends how loose Villain really is. Can't complain about the call though, 17% of the time an A or K comes on the turn and hero is suddenly a 65/35 dog, but still ahead of a diamond.

I like the check on the turn. There aren't many Qs and lower n Hero's and Villain is very loose. I would re-raise the turn. Hero is ahead and after the call there are 61.1 BBs in the pot and 92.2 BB behind. Re-raising 30 BB will get a call from an A or a K, but Hero is losing to AA, KK, QQ, TT, 99, AQ, KQ which will also call. I like the check.

I like the button check and re-raise. It's true hero losses to AJ, a hand that would make perfect sense for Villain to have, given her play, however call is mandatory and that leaves hero with only 34 BBs behind and a 177 BB pot. With those odds Villain is calling all of those hands she was ahead on the turn with (AA, KK, QQ, TT, 99,) plus all of her As. Aj is just a cooler, IMHO.
 
Misaki

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For starters I would not raise QJs UTG, even 6-handed. Hero will hit either a J or Q only 1/3 of the time and when he does, he is not sure he is ahead, making for difficult post flop play.

are you serious? if you would fold QJs then you would have a super nitty stats. If you have the nitty stats and everyone sees that you fold a lot preflop then when you will have a top range like kings or aces everyone will fold to you because you are super strong so it means you earn nothing with that hands. And starters should learn playing poker by opening something more than aces or kings. Of course there are some bounders and they should play tight but QJs? I understand folding QTs, but QJs should be open every time unless you have some aggro allin donkey behind.
 
PaxMundi

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You could fold to the 3bet i wouldn't usually flat this oop from utg.But the 3bet is quite small so calling is ok if marginal.Postflop i think just calling the river is probably best as villain likely isn't betting that size without a strait.
 
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noahband

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I like your river check raise - villain played this like an over pair (AA or KK) which may call your jam. You only lose to AJ - I would take the thin value against the rest of his range. What was the final result?


He had AJo and won with the straight, I guess the flop and turn bets were just bluffs? Seems bad to 3bet AJo and then barrel off with only a gutshot? Especially since ace high actually has nonzero equity?
 
PaxMundi

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He had AJo and won with the straight, I guess the flop and turn bets were just bluffs? Seems bad to 3bet AJo and then barrel off with only a gutshot? Especially since ace high actually has nonzero equity?

Villain turned a double gutter increasing equity so his barrel is fine.It's possible villain also had the Ad increasing river bluff opportunities ?.Villain might also have some info that you call oop a bit to wide including suited connectors in your oop ranges.Although over this sample size i doubt they have to much info.So his barreling off might be for very good reason vs your ranges here.AJo makes a very good bluff ip so nothing wrong with villains line and 24/17/13 over 140 hands doesn't make me feel like they are just trying to run me over with garbage.I thought to begin with the 3bet might be on the smaller side but your open is 2.5x and the 3bet is 3x ip , so i actually think it's an easier fold pre to the 3bet than i first thought.With more info we can widen and adjust our calling ranges to specific villains when appropriate.
 
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braveslice

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For starters I would not raise QJs UTG, even 6-handed.


This difference between 6 handed and 9 handed is larger than meets the eye first (I just realized myself lol). At 6 max there are 3 players with position to you if they decide to play, 9 max whopping 6, that is 2x more.
 
Hujiko

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Unless the game is super aggressive I would def open QJs from UTG when 6 Max.

Would prob fold to a 3 Bet from the BTN as I dont want to play QJs from OOP in a 3 bet pot as the stacks aren't deep enough for that.

I like the check call on the flop and turn as you only don't want to see a A or K to come.

Would not check raise but check call on the river, although check raising is not that bad in this situation. The raise is so small that the BTN is priced in if he has something e.g. a set and he does not want to be exploited. If he folds would make a big note that the player might be able to make big lay downs and would small bet all rivers against him until proven otherwise. :D
 
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Hand is perfectly fine as played.

Pre is standard open. Calling the 3bet is more up in the air. I call a portion of my QJs in this situation, not loving it but we need to call some hands and QJs is decent enough. I wouldn't call it every time tough.

Flop call is good, our range is too weak for a raise.

Turn call idem

River we are not folding ever. Raise is close but probly better than calling. We are still ahead of Villain's value range and whatever he's betting for value, no matter how bad it is, will call the small raise.

Since the hand was played well but you still don't like it maybe it's something else bothering you? Perhaps calling 3 bets? You can read tons of info about it on any of the popular blogs or forums.
 
TheBigFinn

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Unless the game is super aggressive I would def open QJs from UTG when 6 Max.. :D

Do you open JTs and T9s as well? Villain is loose aggressive. with a VPIP: of 24.22,and a Preflop 3-bet of:13%.. Likely more on the button. IMHO, its just too hard
 
PaxMundi

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Do you open JTs and T9s as well? Villain is loose aggressive. with a VPIP: of 24.22,and a Preflop 3-bet of:13%.. Likely more on the button. IMHO, its just too hard


Those would be in even the tighter side of a Tag range which is around 12%. To exclude those hands your playing a Nit range somewhere around 9% which is also fine if that is where you feel comfortable at the moment.
 
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the river raise is too much, your line was pretty good to me check calling, u should have continue that on the river too, yes u have the 2nd nuts and only AJ is beating u but for me u dont get any value by raising the river worst hands will not call u there at best u will be called to chop
 
Hujiko

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Do you open JTs and T9s as well? Villain is loose aggressive. with a VPIP: of 24.22,and a Preflop 3-bet of:13%.. Likely more on the button. IMHO, its just too hard

Yes I might open TJs and T9s also from UTG in 6 Max.

I don't consider VPIP 24 and PFR 18 as particular loose aggressive in 6 MAX, for me that is still on the tight aggressive side of the border between tight and loose.

Their big 13% 3 bet range is likely coming mostly from SB and BB and only then from the BTN.
 
TheBigFinn

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Playing QJs cost too much for later AA KK action at $10NLHE

are you serious? if you would fold QJs then you would have a super nitty stats. If you have the nitty stats and everyone sees that you fold a lot preflop then when you will have a top range like kings or aces everyone will fold to you because you are super strong so it means you earn nothing with that hands. And starters should learn playing poker by opening something more than aces or kings. Of course there are some bounders and they should play tight but QJs? I understand folding QTs, but QJs should be open every time unless you have some aggro all in donkey behind.

I don't think you get the concept of different ranges for different positions. I'd like to play a 25% VPIP across the entire range 6-handed . If one plays QJs as the bottom of a 15% range, what range does Hero play on the button? 50%?

The argument that one needs to play suited connector 40/60 dogs UTG so one can get action on their Aces and Kings is just a little silly. IMHO, one loses more playing these hands than one gains on their big pairs.

Finally, because of Villain's 3-betting range, Hero pretty much has to either cold call or 4-bet bluff. all of Villain's 3-bets Adding in the extra 13% of the time Hero plays this loose open for 7BB OOP as a 35/65 dog (Villain's hand is stronger, although it is only one hand now) really destroys the "need action on big hands" argument. This is $10 NLHE after all, not the final table at the WSOP.
 
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braveslice

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I don't think you get the concept of different ranges for different positions. I'd like to play a 25% VPIP across the entire range 6-handed . If one plays QJs as the bottom of a 15% range, what range does Hero play on the button? 50%? .

This part is really confusing. I must read it wrong, can you clarify what you mean?

In ranges the bottom is skill dependent, you open those hands that are in theory break even for you, but in practice they are slightly losing.
 
Misaki

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I don't think you get the concept of different ranges for different positions. I'd like to play a 25% VPIP across the entire range 6-handed . If one plays QJs as the bottom of a 15% range, what range does Hero play on the button? 50%?

The argument that one needs to play suited connector 40/60 dogs UTG so one can get action on their Aces and Kings is just a little silly. IMHO, one loses more playing these hands than one gains on their big pairs.

Finally, because of Villain's 3-betting range, Hero pretty much has to either cold call or 4-bet bluff. all of Villain's 3-bets Adding in the extra 13% of the time Hero plays this loose open for 7BB OOP as a 35/65 dog (Villain's hand is stronger, although it is only one hand now) really destroys the "need action on big hands" argument. This is $10 NLHE after all, not the final table at the WSOP.

I don't know what are you really talking about. QJs is +EV open for me and should be for most of the people. If you don't earn money in long run with that hand on EP then it means you have big leaks postflop. Anyway many years ago people liked to use a term "future ev''. In that situation if we would fold too much preflop then we won't earn enough money with better hands because people will notice that we are very tight on EP and they will not pay us off like we would like to. QJs is a clear open in online 6max games on every position. I would consider it to fold if I would have some aggro allin fishes on table.On microstakes, low stakes it should be open almost always. in 99,9% of situations. On higher limits you don't play a hand but most of the times with good constructed range with proper gameplan with different parts of your range and one of these part which includes QJs as well too. Because it's a profitable hand as an open. If someone 3bets you then you defend your range, not a single hand. Of course that thing about opening, defening range is also a thing on micro and lowstakes but we should be more focused on exploiting side than gto.
 
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