$10 NLHE 6-max: Playing JJ is difficult with one overcard and without initiative.

L

limakpl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Total posts
133
Chips
0
Hi everyone , how would you play it and why ?

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2854365
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $10.00
Hero (BTN): $10.87
SB: $10.00
BB: $14.85
UTG: $4.96
MP: $4.09

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with Jc Js
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.90) Kc 9d 5s (2 players)
SB bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.30) 3h (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.60, SB raises to $3.80, Hero folds
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
checking back turn about 1 million % of the time

Other then that WP, flop call is meh but I think you have to peel one here
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Pretty easy check on the turn. After betting the flop, nothing you beat is likely calling another bet, and there are really no draws on this board. Check back, get 1 bet away from showdown, and consider calling a river bet.

The choice to 4-bet or call pre is worth discussing too, but they require some reads.

-If he's more likely to get all in pre with marginal hands (AJ, TT, 99), then 4-bet.
-If he's more likely to cbet and then be passive & predictable postflop, call.

JJ is notoriously tricky postflop, since there's really no board you love stacking off on (Jxx exempted). It only makes an overpair half the time, and I prefer to just get it in preflop if my opponent will stack off wide enough to let me.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
4-betting is a possibility for the reasons cited above.
Otherwise, check back turn. You're trying to get to showdown cheaply at this point. You can't bet for value and nothing that is better is folding.
His line seems to really only point to KK, AA, maybe 99, maybe AK (perhaps too much credit but it is strong af).
 
M

MinhANguyen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Total posts
695
Chips
0
Check turn and fold river against most players. I don't think 4-betting JJ is good because we have to fold to a 5-bet jam. We are ahead of his 3-bet range, but are way behind is 4-bet calling range and 5-bet jamming range. We're just folding all out his bluffs and letting him continue with his premium hands. I'd rather 4-bet the top of my range and 4-bet bluff stuff like KQo/Axs than 4-bet JJ. It's not like we can really 4-bet JJ for value, calling a shove sucks because his range is super strong, and we can't fold out any better hands.

You need to get used to playing postflop with these types of bluff-catchers/semi-strong hands. I used to think JJ was hard to play too, but you'll get used to it eventually.
 
Last edited:
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
we have to fold to a 5-bet jam.
Lol, no.

If our opponent is 3-betting like 7%, we can 4-bet/call off profitably.

I've posted the preflop chart like a trillion times. Just search it.
 
M

MinhANguyen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Total posts
695
Chips
0
From your typical average opponent, we should fold unless we want to lose money. JJ is way ahead of any 3-betting range unless it's from a nit, but it is not ahead of a 5-bet jamming range. 4-bet/5-bet ranges are super tight and are almost always for value.

And just because someone has an x% 3-bet range does not mean that they are proportionally balanced in their 5-bet jamming range with value hands and bluffs that makes 4-bet/calling off JJ profitable. A person can have anywhere from a 5%-12% 3-bet range, yet 5-bet jam only AA/KK or AA/KK/AK, which JJ is in bad shape against (especially the former).

A lot of people's 5-bet ranges are exclusively AA/KK. There's just a general population tendency for people to almost exclusively just flat-call QQ/AK and lower tier hands to a 3-bet that you suggest are shoving over a 4-bet from a x% 3-bet range. I have never seen QQ 5-bet shove, ever. 4-bet once and call off a 5-bet shove. Call 3-bet always, call some 4-bets, and fold to what I assume to be a decent amount of 4-bets. I very rarely see QQ stack off pre. AK on the other hand though I see stacking off a decent amount of times, but I don't see them 4-bet/5-bet jamming nearly as much as AA/KK.

And I have seen that preflop chart, and I just found it again. It's wrong. If our opponent's 5-bet range is ONLY AA, how exactly is stacking off with KK optimal? And I think that the program is calculating our stack-off range assuming that every opponent 5-bets x% of their 3-bet% range and/or is balanced with their value/bluff 5-bet range. Which are not true.
 
Last edited:
M

MinhANguyen

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Total posts
695
Chips
0
Another alternative the program might be calculating our stack-off range (tbh I'm not exactly sure) is that we're earning enough from the folds of our 4-bets to make up for the times we are way behind in equity against their 5-bet jamming range and call it off. But is that the most +EV way to approach it? I doubt it, and it looks BE/super marginal or maybe even slightly -EV to me, especially with rake factored in.

Also let's look at QQ vs an exactly 3% 3-bet range. Since we hold QQ, there's only one combo of QQ left that he can have. That means he has all combos of JJ/KK/AA/AKo/AKs, and one of QQ. When we 4-bet, we get JJ to fold 95% of the time and isolate ourselves against AK/AA/KK. The other last combo of QQ isn't really important, as we chop, it's really rare to get PP vs PP, and a decent amount of players fold QQ vs 4-bet. So why exactly are we 4-bet/calling off QQ? Our new equity against that range is 40%, and we basically just tried to turn our hand into a bluff. If someone's 3-bet range is that tight, I'm pretty sure 4-bet/calling off with only KK/AA is the most profitable line. Exploitable? Yes. Who cares? And if he eventually finds out that we're only 4-betting KK/AA against him, we can just adjust.
 
Last edited:
PokerNinja91

PokerNinja91

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Total posts
46
Chips
0
BTN vs SB, 4betting is OK and probably stacking off if he shoves. If he's 3betting a decent amount.
Preflop ranges are villain dependant and we could argue all day, I personally have seen a profit from getting JJ in BB vs SB, SB vs BB and SB vs BTN certainly from 16NL+. 10NL might be different, players might be way tighter idk. But players 3bet range from the SB vs BTN is sooo wide, let's assume he is 3betting AJ+ All the Broadway suited connectors, 10-10+ which might be a little wide but not far from the mark in my experience, then calling will put you in tough spots if he barrels two streets, you have to fold most of the time. We could 4bet now and get him to fold all of his medium hands and then make a decision if he 5bets. Although I'm personally happy to go with it - Assuming villain isn't super tight.
Just to reply to the comment above - I've seen many players 5bet shove with QQ and even even worse than that - A10s just recently in fact, it wasn't a zoom game and I had been very actively 3 and 4betting so maybe it doesn't apply to this. But as I say, you need a good read on villain before you decide how to play the hand. Just calling pre is an option, we obviously don't want to fold this hand - It's just gonna be tricky post flop.
As played though - check back turn - I get that you want to fold out his hands like AQ etc but I think you're burning money in general, he knows you can't have Many Kings here, given you would 4bet AK and might not call any worse kings so he can re-raise as a bluff. Although with that sizing it's definitely not a bluff. The fold as played is good.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Was the turn bet supposed to be a bluff?
 
L

limakpl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Total posts
133
Chips
0
yes right no point in betting on the turn, we never get value from anything worse and we never will make better hands to fold.
But what about smaller bet .? smaller than 1/2 let's say to 0.70 ( it would look weak I know) , but could give us important information against many opponents and inittiative. If we have bet small and have the best hand and they fold, we secure good sized pot. If they call than it would be super wierd if the villain would bet the river. So we avoid guessing and calling a bigger bet on the river? If they raise on turn prabobly they are ahead.
BY betting we don't give them opportunity to bluff river.
I don't know what do you think, about small bet option?????
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Do agree in just checking on turn.

We might give him opportunity to cr us if we bet and so he did. Now we dont know where we stand.

Do agree also that JJ is one of the hardest hand to play with.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
Enjoyed reading this thread some interesting stuff here. I will have a look at my HM2 and see what people are 5bet shoving and calling at 25nl over a big sample.
In the last week an agg SB 3bettor 5bet shoved 99 into me When I was on the btn.
I also got 4bet shoved on by a guy on the btn with 99. Both times I had the goods and could look them up. I also spewed a TT 5bet shove from the blinds against a guy on the btn who was 4 betting 25% of the time over a decent sample and I ran into aces.
When we are getting full stacks in like this its very important to make sure we are doing it right. This topic deserves it's own thread.
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
yes right no point in betting on the turn, we never get value from anything worse and we never will make better hands to fold.
But what about smaller bet .? smaller than 1/2 let's say to 0.70 ( it would look weak I know) , but could give us important information against many opponents and inittiative. If we have bet small and have the best hand and they fold, we secure good sized pot. If they call than it would be super wierd if the villain would bet the river. So we avoid guessing and calling a bigger bet on the river? If they raise on turn prabobly they are ahead.
BY betting we don't give them opportunity to bluff river.
I don't know what do you think, about small bet option?????

A smaller bet is no different to the bet you made. It still gives villain the opportunity to check raise and he can bluff the river anyway. Our hand here has showdown value, not enough value to be making the pot bigger but enough that if we manage to get to showdown cheaply we will be ahead of his range enough of the time to make a profit. As we want to get to showdown cheaply we want to make the most of what we have going for us in this hand which is position. With position we get to decide how big of a pot we want to play with our hand and in this case we want to keep it as small as possible so the best option is to check behind.

Once the river comes we re evaluate. We get to see what card comes out, whether villain bets or not and the size of his bet. If he checks to us we can check behind and most likely win the pot with our second pair which is a great outcome. If he bets we just need to figure out what he would be betting again with and decide what to do from there, it may even come down to calling in this spot sometimes and folding others.
 
Top