$10 NLHE 6-max: only 15 hands on villain.kk oop in 3bet pot Ace hits flop

Full Tilt - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
Hero (CO): $15.21
BTN: $12.63
SB: $9.90
BB: $11.45
UTG: $14.26
SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has K♦ K♣
fold, Hero raises to $0.40, BTN raises to $0.90, fold, fold, Hero raises to $2.85, BTN calls $1.95
Flop: ($5.85, 2 players) A♣ J♣ 6♥
Hero checks, BTN bets $9.78 and is all-in, Hero???

4bet pot actually. Fold.

Well obviously you have to fold the overshove without reads. You should b/f instead though for value. It also doesn't put you in a horrible spot

ComplexPlaya said:

Well obviously you have to fold the overshove without reads. You should b/f instead though for value. It also doesn't put you in a horrible spot

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I really think c/folding is better. I mean what does villain have that calls the 4bet preflop that he bluffs this flop with? Non set pairs less than the Ace check back 99.9% of the time so our chances of folding the best hand are small. What does villain ever call with that we beat? QQ can't call a bet on this board and that's the top of villain's range we could ever hope to get value from here.

WVHillbilly said:

I really think c/folding is better. I mean what does villain have that calls the 4bet preflop that he bluffs this flop with? Non set pairs less than the Ace check back 99.9% of the time so our chances of folding the best hand are small. What does villain ever call with that we beat? QQ can't call a bet on this board and that's the top of villain's range we could ever hope to get value from here.

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I think you're over-estimating villain. Flatting a 4-bet is a severe sign of weakness. Sure it may be AA trying to "trap" sometimes but usually it's crap that looks pretty and he doesn't want to fold it. So when he sees hero check, he shoves.

Granted if that's the case a c/c is better but we don't know this villain at all so b/f is safer imo. Just the fact he flat called a 4-bet says tons about him.

Sorry 4 bet pot my bad. I check folded. Later on I noticed villain would check or call with like middle pair and push or bet big when checked to and he had big hand so I think I played it right but at time I had no read.

ComplexPlaya said:

I think you're over-estimating villain. Flatting a 4-bet is a severe sign of weakness. Sure it may be AA trying to "trap" sometimes but usually it's crap that looks pretty and he doesn't want to fold it. So when he sees hero check, he shoves.

Granted if that's the case a c/c is better but we don't know this villain at all so b/f is safer imo. Just the fact he flat called a 4-bet says tons about him.

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How much are you betting here? Even with a half pot bet we have ~50% of effective stacks in the middle.

stubzy11 said:

How much are you betting here? Even with a half pot bet we have ~50% of effective stacks in the middle.

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Bet $3 and fold to a shove (though it's really close. Just have to go by gut feeling if it happens). He's going to call with a J and FDs, I think QQ too, but will fold a lot of stuff that misses. It's not a value bet, more like a bet to take the dead money, with the benefit that we avoid the very tough spot of allowing him to take us off our hand.

What are we scared of here realistically? AK is unlikely b/c of our 2 blockers, and if he flats a 4-bet with AQ and down he's going to flat with mid pairs, KJ QJs etc. too.

I really think your range is way too wide for an unknown calling a 4 bet. Most players 3 bet at 10NL is about 3-4% which I guess we could widen to say 6% as it is CO vs BTN. Maybe something like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+

Tighten this up a little for calling the 4 bet to say TT+, AQs+, AKo and we aren't looking too shit hot to be picking up dead money on this board.Even against this tight range though we are only slight underdogs on this flop but huge underdogs to his shoving range of JJ, AA, AQs+, AKo.

stubzy11 said:

I really think your range is way too wide for an unknown calling a 4 bet. Most players 3 bet at 10NL is about 3-4% which I guess we could widen to say 6% as it is CO vs BTN. Maybe something like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+

Tighten this up a little for calling the 4 bet to say TT+, AQs+, AKo and we aren't looking too shit hot to be picking up dead money on this board.Even against this tight range though we are only slight underdogs on this flop but huge underdogs to his shoving range of JJ, AA, AQs+, AKo.

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Even if your range is true, b/f is better than c/f because we keep up aggression and have FE.

I think as I said to WV you are giving him too much credit, flatting a 4-bet is a huge sign of weakness imo, more like a bluff with pretty cards he doesn't want to let go off

Looking at my hands at 5NL and 10NL where I 4bet and got called and saw a showdown. Seems to be about 75% QQ+ AK and 25% junk.

It is obviously villain dependant but I think against an unknown we should just treat him as a passive fish.

Whats the plan for the turn if you bet and get called? check/fold? Even with half your stack in there?

stubzy11 said:

Looking at my hands at 5NL and 10NL where I 4bet and got called and saw a showdown. Seems to be about 75% QQ+ AK and 25% junk.

It is obviously villain dependant but I think against an unknown we should just treat him as a passive fish.

Whats the plan for the turn if you bet and get called? check/fold? Even with half your stack in there?

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It's normal those are the hands that see showdown, can you look what % of hands that called your 4-bet didn't see showdown ? I'm interested in this because it doesn't happen often enough. How big is your sample as well ?

For the turn yes c/f because he's unknown, but bet because we want the dead money in there and don't want to get bluffed off. Can't treat him as passive by default once he 3bets really

15 hands that didn't go to showdown, 23 that did. Of those 23 18 are QQ+, AK. Obviously not a large sample but it obviously doesn't happen too much at the micros. Plus this is all full ring.

Flatting the 4-bet may well be only JJ,QQ, AA and AK. Only one of which you beat. I definitely think c/f flop is the only move here as he won't call a bet with worse than KK

I also think myabe you could 4-bet less to maybe 2-2.25to induce a 5-bet shove which you can call off

ben_rhyno said:

I also think myabe you could 4-bet less to maybe 2-2.25to induce a 5-bet shove which you can call off

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And get less value when he calls? If you had reads on villain that he will shove over a smaller raise then go for it but against an unknown when we are betting for value we should be making it as large as we can, as long as we think worse hands will still call/shove.

ComplexPlaya said:

What are we scared of here realistically? AK is unlikely b/c of our 2 blockers, and if he flats a 4-bet with AQ and down he's going to flat with mid pairs, KJ QJs etc. too.

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Problem is that if we start adding hands like KJ/QJ we also need to add more Aces than just AQ. At least AJ and likely ATs as well. Also do you really think he flats the 4bet preflop and bluff shoves with QJ on an Ace high board when checked to?

stubzy11 said:

I really think your range is way too wide for an unknown calling a 4 bet. Most players 3 bet at 10NL is about 3-4% which I guess we could widen to say 6% as it is CO vs BTN. Maybe something like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+

Tighten this up a little for calling the 4 bet to say TT+, AQs+, AKo and we aren't looking too shit hot to be picking up dead money on this board.Even against this tight range though we are only slight underdogs on this flop but huge underdogs to his shoving range of JJ, AA, AQs+, AKo.

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WVHillbilly said:

Problem is that if we start adding hands like KJ/QJ we also need to add more Aces than just AQ. At least AJ and likely ATs as well. Also do you really think he flats the 4bet preflop and bluff shoves with QJ on an Ace high board when checked to?

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I am happy I had these hands happen today :


BTN: €20.60
SB: €28.42
BB: €4.70
UTG: €23.55
Hero (MP): €23.02
CO: €35.30

SB posts SB €0.10, BB posts BB €0.20

Pre Flop: (€0.30) Hero has T:diamond: A:heart:

fold, Hero raises to €0.70, fold, BTN raises to €2.40, fold, fold, Hero raises to €6.22, BTN calls €3.82

Flop: (€12.74, 2 players) 8:heart: 5:diamond: A:club:
Hero checks, BTN bets €12.74, Hero raises to €16.80 and is all-in, BTN calls €1.64 and is all-in

Turn: (€41.50, 2 players) K:spade:

River: (€41.50, 2 players) T:spade:

Hero shows T:diamond: A:heart: (Two Pair, Aces and Tens) (PreFlop 63%, Flop 82%, Turn 89%)
BTN shows Q:diamond: 8:club: (One Pair, Eights) (PreFlop 37%, Flop 18%, Turn 11%)
Hero wins €39.43

and

UTG: €23.36
MP: €34.58
CO: €9.10
Hero (BTN): €38.75
SB: €19.48
BB: €24.79

SB posts SB €0.10, BB posts BB €0.20

Pre Flop: (€0.30) Hero has A:diamond: K:heart:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to €0.70, fold, BB raises to €2.20, Hero raises to €5.57, BB calls €3.37

Flop: (€11.24, 2 players) 9:heart: 3:diamond: 2:club:
BB checks, Hero bets €6.00, fold

Hero wins €10.68

These are both from reg full stackers. And this is 20NL, a level above the hand posted, it can only be worse at 10NL.

Really, just think about it : flat calling a 4-bet is a sign of big passive weakness. Especially from regs, don't they shove QQ+/AK ? Why are we giving them credit for that being most of their range?

In this case it was probably a bluff shove like that genius with the Q8. With more reads c/c is better, but with unknown b/f is fine imo.