£10 NLHE 6-max: Need some thoughts on this.

Thinker_145 · Apr 14, 2014

iPoker - £0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.46, PFR: 11.54, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, hands: 79)
Hero (BB): 133.4 BB
CO: 270.8 BB (VPIP: 35.00, PFR: 25.71, 3Bet Preflop: 10.34, Hands: 143)
BTN: 122.9 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 12)

4 players post ante of 0.2 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has 9:heart: T:club:

fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (6.3 BB, 2 players) T:heart: 7:heart: 9:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 4.4 BB, Hero raises to 19.5 BB, BTN raises to 45.3 BB, Hero raises to 130.7 BB and is all-in, BTN calls 74.9 BB

Turn: (246.7 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:

River: (246.7 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:

Hero shows 9:heart: T:club: (Two Pair, Tens and Nines) (Pre 40%, Flop 22%, Turn 9%)
BTN shows 8:spade: J:spade: (Straight, Jack High) (Pre 60%, Flop 78%, Turn 91%)
Hero wins 10.5 BB
BTN wins 230.3 BB

This hand tilted me as I thought I had done something really stupid. However now that I look back at it I am not too sure what I can do. Should I just fold when he 3 bets the flop? I have never folded top 2 pair on the flop, I always play them aggressively and they are in most cases the best hand on the flop.

I know this is being results oriented but looking at the turn and river I would not have gotten away with it even if I called the flop instead of 4 betting. He is probably betting big on the turn and then I am committed.

So is this just a bad beat I just forget about or should I have folded after the 3 bet on the flop?

Henreiman · Apr 15, 2014

Nothing you can do here with top two. Super not surprised when they show up with draws and you steal equity, overpairs, A10, etc.

byrnsiey330 · Apr 15, 2014

No matter what you were most likely going to get your whole stack involved, but I would have flatted on the flop. I really didn't have J8 in his range, but I'm wrong a lot.

John A · Apr 15, 2014

I think it looks fine. Just a little deeper and you should have played it a little different, but I think it's ok 120 bb effective.

BluffMeAllIn · Apr 15, 2014

fold = 3bet > call pre.....its only 4 handed but 9Toff pre is getting you in so many situations where you will be dominated so think I'd be folding or 3beting pre....depending on feel i might lead towards one or the other, possibly 3bet but would be folding or 3 betting before I'd call there. Just IMO obv.

As played hard to get away from the flop, you block sets except 77 and there are many draws he could have although I think its likely vill is going to flat your c/r with draws there and would expect as villian is shaping up tag looking stats that reraising your c/r is a very strong play in that spot saying i have your set beat or that your going to pay big for the heart draw etc.

Ubercroz · Apr 15, 2014

I think you fold here. I don't want to call OOP here, even this short handed.

I don't want to raise because this hand plays like crap OOP and the pot is inflated. This, I think, is not the kind of hand you want to 3bet with. I would rather 3bet here with K4s than with T9o. There is just a lot that can go badly when he calls and you end up with middle pair and have to make some tough decisions.

That being said, I would STILL rather you 3bet than call. Calling is just no good. You are still OOP and you are more likely to be playing against hands that have you dominated (JT+,J9+). You get yourself into bad spots and you end up over paying for your dumb mid-strength hands. At least when you 3bet you get folds from these hands that beat you.

Regardless, there you are you called and feel good because you happened to get just about the best thing you could possibly get. So you bet and got it all in, there you go it worked out. Except you lost, but we can't really worry about that.

Please fold preflop next time.

BluffMeAllIn · Apr 15, 2014

Yeah my only thought on 3betting to comment on the no 3-bet uber, was to call you must think he is trying to steal the blins so a 3-bet would be more or less a resteal showing strength......in which case if vil calls the 3bet I'd actually much better about stacking off having flopped two pair having narrowed their range whereas simply flatting pre gives you no information as to what they could possibly have.

Just a thought? If makes no sense let me know, currently in the cash game learning phases myself.

Ubercroz · Apr 15, 2014

BluffMeAllIn said:
Yeah my only thought on 3betting to comment on the no 3-bet uber, was to call you must think he is trying to steal the blins so a 3-bet would be more or less a resteal showing strength......in which case if vil calls the 3bet I'd actually much better about stacking off having flopped two pair having narrowed their range whereas simply flatting pre gives you no information as to what they could possibly have.

Just a thought? If makes no sense let me know, currently in the cash game learning phases myself.

It does make sense, I just don't personally think this is the hand to do it with. Because I don't know if he is stealing. If he is stealing (we will find that out as we play more with him) then I think you can weigh this more towards a 3bet.

3betting IS better than calling. I think calling is just hot garbage. I prefer the fold is all.

If you are have some good reads on your opponent and have some solid reasons to 3bet, I could agree. It also takes very solid post flop play. I don't think I am good enough postflop to play this hand here. Other people certainly are.

John A · Apr 15, 2014

Calling pre-flop is fine. If you can't win less than -100bb/100 with this hand getting over 2.5:1 on a call, then you should probably drop poker and pick up crocheting imho.

Edit: I just read some of the other comments. That's not intended as an insult. You have decent equity, and you're already losing -100bb/100 on this hand if you just fold. The higher equity play is to call.

Ubercroz · Apr 15, 2014

John A said:
Calling pre-flop is fine. If you can't win less than -100bb/100 with this hand getting over 2.5:1 on a call, then you should probably drop poker and pick up crocheting imho.

Edit: I just read some of the other comments. That's not intended as an insult. You have decent equity, and you're already losing -100bb/100 on this hand if you just fold. The higher equity play is to call.

No insult taken, but I think that there is a little bit of a flawed thought in there.

Because you could use that argument in a lot of situations. why not complete in the SB with 67? You're already losing 50bb/100 surely you can do better than that, why not call a bet with 53o in the bb, your already losing 100bb/100 hands, why not etc, etc.

The very real problem is that you COULD be doing worse than 100bb/100 with this hand in this spot. Because you may be giving away money on the flop or turn that is hard to make up for. It requires you to be able to really understand your opponent and make the right bet/call/etc on further streets. and it could take an incredible number of hands before you truly have an understanding if you CAN do better than -100bb/100 with this hand in this spot.

For me, I would rather play a stronger range OOP against an unknown player. I accept that I am going to lose a ton in the blinds, and I only resteal when I have a sense that someone is stealing. I don't like to defend my blinds with mediocre holdings, especially when I am encouraging the BB to call by giving him EVEN BETTER odds, and being OOP to multiple opponents.

No thank you, I will take my -100bb/100 hands played and I will make up for that in position and with stronger holdings, because I don't know that I can do better than that.

EDIT - forgot this was in the BB, I still like the fold, but peoples arguments make more sense now that I have my head on straight - though for this entire discussion I convinced myself this was in the SB.

thatgreekdude · Apr 15, 2014

really draw heavy board, err that's a tough spot, because with that board texture you're both looking to play the hand as fast as possible, both probably worried about hands like JQ, 88, hearts, that's a really tough hand haha, i honestly think you should just suck that one up and move on not a lot you could of done, you could get away from top two but then again he's probably going to play this hand the exact same if he was holding say aces or an overpair.. sorry this analysis sucks =))

John A · Apr 15, 2014

Ubercroz said:
No insult taken, but I think that there is a little bit of a flawed thought in there.

Because you could use that argument in a lot of situations. why not complete in the SB with 67? You're already losing 50bb/100 surely you can do better than that, why not call a bet with 53o in the bb, your already losing 100bb/100 hands, why not etc, etc.

The very real problem is that you COULD be doing worse than 100bb/100 with this hand in this spot. Because you may be giving away money on the flop or turn that is hard to make up for. It requires you to be able to really understand your opponent and make the right bet/call/etc on further streets. and it could take an incredible number of hands before you truly have an understanding if you CAN do better than -100bb/100 with this hand in this spot.

For me, I would rather play a stronger range OOP against an unknown player. I accept that I am going to lose a ton in the blinds, and I only resteal when I have a sense that someone is stealing. I don't like to defend my blinds with mediocre holdings, especially when I am encouraging the BB to call by giving him EVEN BETTER odds, and being OOP to multiple opponents.

No thank you, I will take my -100bb/100 hands played and I will make up for that in position and with stronger holdings, because I don't know that I can do better than that.

EDIT - forgot this was in the BB, I still like the fold, but peoples arguments make more sense now that I have my head on straight - though for this entire discussion I convinced myself this was in the SB.

You're not thinking about this correctly. I'm not sure how you're approaching it to be honest based on reading your comments, but most semi-competent players can make this a profitable play (meaning less than -100bb/100). I'm not advocating doing this unless you're getting 2.5:1 or better when you're equity is going to be ~40%+ against your opponents range. Most of these calls with be to 2.5x or 2x calls from steal positions. Why don't you run a filter in your database for when you've cold called out of the BB with T9o, and see what it says. I bet you even have less than -100bb/100.

I agree though that it's much more ideal to have stronger hands in position. I think everyone knows that. But in today's games you need to take every narrow +EV advantage you can and make it as profitable as possible.

IM deusXmachina · Apr 15, 2014

I would say folding PF most often than not.....that's the only way you were gonna get out of having to fold two pair on the flop, which is always easier said than done.....

Thinker_145 · Apr 15, 2014

Thanks for the input everyone.

One thing I'll say is that I just can't agree with folding pre. This is 4 handed poker so you have to play mediocre hands OOP or you may as well not play 4 handed poker at all that's my opinion and I respect other viewpoints.

I understand the 3-bet pre suggestions but I feel playing that way is quite high variance and against unknown opponents you will have to make quite a lot of complete guesses OOP which is not much fun to be honest.

Ubercroz · Apr 15, 2014

John A said:
You're not thinking about this correctly. I'm not sure how you're approaching it to be honest based on reading your comments, but most semi-competent players can make this a profitable play (meaning less than -100bb/100). I'm not advocating doing this unless you're getting 2.5:1 or better when you're equity is going to be ~40%+ against your opponents range. Most of these calls with be to 2.5x or 2x calls from steal positions. Why don't you run a filter in your database for when you've cold called out of the BB with T9o, and see what it says. I bet you even have less than -100bb/100.

I agree though that it's much more ideal to have stronger hands in position. I think everyone knows that. But in today's games you need to take every narrow +EV advantage you can and make it as profitable as possible.

My T9o is better than -100/100 - but I don't play it OOP

For this to be profitable we need to know that he is stealing, and additionally that he has a fairly wide stealing range. It's 4 handed, so maybe he does. But to have better than 40% equity against his range he needs to be stealing about 50% of his hands.

So he needs to be stealing A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J8o+, T8o+, 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, 96s+, 86s, 75s+.

That is a lot of hands. Like I said, 4 handed maybe - but I don't think most people adjust for being short handed, and I don't think most unknown 10nl players steal that wide.

We are also OOP against his range, and we only have 1% better equity than we need to beat him. This is a very thin call.

I hope math makes my point, that it is likely better to fold here against an unknown with no reads.

Arjonius · Apr 16, 2014

John A said:
Calling pre-flop is fine. If you can't win less than -100bb/100 with this hand getting over 2.5:1 on a call, then you should probably drop poker and pick up crocheting imho.

Assuming your premise that players should be able to do better than -100bb/100 in this situation, how many at this level actually are? And even more to the point, is OP?

Granted it's kinda chicken and egg since you can't do better if you don't try.

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£10 NLHE 6-max: Need some thoughts on this.

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