$10 NLHE 6-max: Min raising paired board as a bluff, fish are fish?

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braveslice

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Would you consider this could be EV+ play? I’m not sure if A9 is a call, but it has to be close.

An experiment, yes I know this is fish like play; I did copy if from fish like play. So please give reasons why fish are fish =) not that I’m fish, that is given.

Villain looks pretty regular to the level vpip 19, RFI 26, CB 2/3, AF 1, WTSD 1/6, WWSF 2/6, Fold to steal 4/4, open BTN 4/12, no notes so he must be quite normal to the level, on the level CB is way over used.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 142.8 BB (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 15.69, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, hands: 53)
Hero (SB): 105.5 BB
BB: 98.7 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 15)
MP: 272.9 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 36)
CO: 96.3 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9 A

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 2.5 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, BB calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (7.5 BB, 3 players) 7 5 7
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN bets 2.4 BB, Hero raises to 4.8 BB
 
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RakeMyLife

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Hmm generally speaking, I don't think min raises, if done correctly, are fishy at all. In fact, I saw or read an interview with Jason Mercier talking about using min raises and convincing Phil Ivey to use them as well (in cash games). Having said that, this doesn't seem like an ideal time.

1) villain has position on you. Unless he has complete air or is super tight, he isn't likely to fold. That means u are committed to a bluff OOP for the rest of the hand. Not ideal...

2) your hand strength. A min raise as a semi bluff could work in that it might get u a free river card, but here we are really hoping he folds as ur hand doesn't have a great chance of improving enough to bet for value.

3) what information do u gain about his hand when he calls? My personal opinion is that min raises work best as an attempt to get info about our opponents hand. Here I just don't think we learn much to help us in later streets, and worse, if he 4bets, we just wasted a bet unnecessarily.

Just my thoughts!
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Problem with raising dryboards is... they can look awfully airy and thats against thinking

Against fish they will call u down with any pockets... they dont care what u have.

I like 3betting prr bcuz ppl believe u more
 
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braveslice

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I don't think min raises, if done correctly, are fishy at all.

Interesting, I have always felt in the realms of annoyances min raises are the most annoying fish move ever =) they are so polarized from nuts to pure air. But yes, because of annoyance I decided to try it. (without preparations though, so yeah quite sure this is wrong move.)


  1. I don’t think I can call profitable A high OOP against 2 players, so I can raise or fold. Raising in dry board is waste of money mostly (like Aces says), if you are not willing to risk it with firing away.
  2. Sometimes I have a best hand, and sometimes I can improve to best hand. Just because I think here hero has still good chances to have the best hand, folding seems awfully annoying.
  3. Board is quite dry, really not hitting at all
  4. The plan was just take a one street stab, when called this board, I’m not interested to test it out.
Fold % needed if pure bluff: 33% that would mean both players should fold 60% of their range. I would guess both have about same 30% range here (426 combos). No given board is so dry they will hit it not quite often, so I would say 60% is difficult but not really impossible task because BU and SB both have very wide ranges. If I get called with bad or even medium hand it many times get checked to the end making possible to hit my possible outs.

Now hero has 29% equity even against hand like 66, 23% vs AK hands and 24% vs A5, these hands mostly want to see the river so hero has good chances to see 2 streets. So even if called we should have at least 15% equity.

Trying this first time:
EV = F*pot + (1-F)(W*(pot+bet) - (1-W)*bet)
= F*9.9 + (1-F)(0.15*(9.9+4.8) - (0.85*4.8)
= 0 = 16% <- fold % needed for zero ev.

That would mean both should fold about 40% of time, or one 80% and another one 20%.

I think this play wasn’t really bad, well it seems it hardly do any profit either.

@RakeMylife, Did I understand it correctly, you would call in this spot on the flop? If calling is right, obviously this play was stupid.

@Aces, “I like 3betting prr bcuz ppl believe u more”, I’m currently trying to build calling ranges too. I find it quite difficult.

Edit: Oh I missed that part of equity is actually coming from tie, that makes the calculation a bit off. Still if we give AT+, all pairs, all suited 7x and 5x, and half 6x, hero has 24% to win.
 
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RakeMyLife

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Yea sorry I didn't quite say what I would do, but it would be between folding and raising much more. I was assuming BB folds in that hand if u min raise (but who knows!).

-Fold bc this pot is small and you can easily can find a better spot. Yes u have overs, but without a read on villains just not a good idea to play a mediocre hand OOP imo. Generally speaking, floating OOP is something I would stay away from.

-Raise higher bc if u think he's weak (and the board is pretty dry), then you'll want to raise so that u have better fold equity against both guys. You'll also get more info with him calling a large raise than u would with him calling a min raise.
 
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braveslice

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Oh I saw 3 days ago EvanerTV (400-600NL) heads up a min raise, unfortunately I can't remember anything about the move.

@Rake I tried to find an example about the correct spot to use min raise but failed. Do you have something in mind?
 
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braveslice

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Well figaroo2 just posted a min raise question to Polished poker thread, let see what John says.
 
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braveslice

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To be fair any raise on that board is considered bluffy looking
 
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RakeMyLife

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Oh I saw 3 days ago EvanerTV (400-600NL) heads up a min raise, unfortunately I can't remember anything about the move.

@Rake I tried to find an example about the correct spot to use min raise but failed. Do you have something in mind?

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/when-the-minimum-raise-is-maximally-wrong-21819.htm

Don't let the title fool you... this article best sums up my thoughts on the min raise (and how it can be used profitably). His suggestions generally fall under a "way ahead and want to squeeze out profit" scenario, but lately I've been paying attention when I use them and I think there are two more...

1) when IP in a heads up pot, u can min raise a habitual c-better (flop) on a polarized board (AA7) to win the pot there. Low risk and most players hate playing out of position and hate scary boards.

2) IP or OP, when u hold a marginal hand and want to pot control by preventing a future bet from villain. E.g. TPTK and villain makes a half-pot bet on the turn. Min raise causes him to think twice about betting river (assuming he flat calls), saving u a bet when u want a showdown.

I think by mixing these two with the "way ahead" scenarios, you've balanced ur range and made it very hard for opponents to interpret ur min bet.
 
Figaroo2

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If you put the guy on a regular steal with a weak range then call preflop and call flop and then lead the turn for a small overbet (as is suggested in Polished Poker, unusual lines to take against late position steals). I use it all the time and it confuses the regs who to a man just fold and move on. If you get called you are beat, don't try to bluff the river. A couple of overcards or a gutshot are the best hands to use.
As played your bet is far too small to achieve anything, 10bb in the pot and you raise less than 3bb? You aren't even pricing out draws. I didn't read every entry in the thread but min raises before the river are usually probes and I generally raise them.
 
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3-bet or fold pre. Lean towards 3-bet against button open. As played, call flop to maybe find a lead on some turns.
 
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braveslice

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How about this, better?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.14, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 30)
SB: 135.1 BB (VPIP: 17.74, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 63)
BB: 251.8 BB (VPIP: 18.52, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG: 67.4 BB (VPIP: 16.98, PFR: 7.55, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 57)
MP: 180.8 BB (VPIP: 23.64, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 5.00, Hands: 57)
Hero (CO): 107.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J K

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 7 BB

Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) A A T
Hero checks, BTN bets 10.3 BB, Hero calls 10.3 BB

Turn: (42.1 BB, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, BTN bets 20.1 BB, Hero raises to 40.5 BB
 
Figaroo2

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4bet or fold hand for me. Looks pretty but often you will be dominated. And even with a 3bet percent of 10 your hand is worse than this so you are accepting to play oop without the initiative and a highly likely equity dog........not good 100bb poker imo.

So why raise the turn on a board like this when you have a half decent draw? If he has an ace you are crushed and he could reraise forcing you to give up all your equity. Even his weaker aces all still call here.
If he doesn't have an ace you might get under pairs to fold (highly unlikely that under pairs fire two barrels here imo) but you are just gambling against a range that holds plenty of aces. Call and catch a diamond you might win a really nice pot if he does have trip aces..but don't cry if you hit a flush and still lose to a boat. I rarely chase flushes on paired boards especially in 3bet pots.
 
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braveslice

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Lolz hard audience, I guess you are right but I did it with a reason.

I decided that it’s more likely he has some other hand than Ax, and by just calling I only leave myself to draw out. I don’t see him ever raisin but rarely AK and full houses so my back should be secured against raises, and villain should be folding lots of stuff that has great equity. He won't fold A but that is not the aim of the bet. And raising is only 20bb extra in 80bb pot, so quite cheap bluff.

I need to have 3bet calling range on CO, KJs is one of logical hands to be there.
 
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