$10 NLHE 6-max: Live game at friends house casual format top set on super drawy board

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Ubercroz

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$10 NL HE 6-max: Live game at friends house casual format top set on super drawy board

Okay so I play at a friends house a couple of times a month started some years back when we were all broke and in college we still play for $10, so not a real serious game but its been getting more competitive over the last couple years.

IMPORTANT FACTS: we play ante's rather than blinds, every hand is .05 ante and the MAX you can buy in for is $10- so when 7 people play it costs .35 each ring of the table and its dealers choice and a strange no limit format to every game that gets played. Also MP3 is an amazing calling station; calls any draw all the time he's like the elemental force of variance. He'll check AK or AA as easily as 27os, CO is pretty aggressive and fairly loose- willing to see lots of flops and been running hot the past hour or so.

HERO- UTG $10.50
UTG+1 :$12
MP1: $4.50
MP2: $5
MP3: $6.75
CO: $11.50
Button: $3.50

Preflop pot is .35
Hero UTG- QcQs raises to .45
Folds to MP3 calls .45, CO calls .45, Button folds. 2 callers
Pot is $1.70

Flop Qh 4h 9h

UTG raises $1.50, MP3 calls, CO calls
Pot is $4.70

Turn Kd
UTG Checks, MP3 checks, CO raises $2.00
UTG Raises to $8.55 and is all in

At face value against two loose players is this line right?
Yeah I could check the flop thinking WA/WB, and the move on the turn was for two reasons- the kind of hands I put them on are lots of draws, made flushes, some combo draws and maybe a straight or worse set. I was thinking that by checkraising all-in I have the opportunity to get some better hands to fold like small flushes and made straights and some worse hands will call paired K's with a heart or some nutflush draws and some of the worse sets. Yeah some of the time I'm just gonna get called with the nuts but against the range I figure either of them for I think I'm ahead pretty often.
 
thepokerkid123

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I think an argument could be made for betting the pot or even overbetting on the flop, but I don't mind the $1.50 bet either.

Only thing I disagree with is the turn check raise. You've got a set against a calling station, just keep betting and get the chips in the middle. A check raise gives both opponents a chance to draw to a flush and if they check behind it makes it very difficult to get CO's stack in the middle on the river unless you're beat.
In other words, you're against a calling station and a loose opponent with a hand that's big enough to play for stacks with, just keep betting.

Also, the following quote I think is a little misguided...
Yeah I could check the flop thinking WA/WB,
It's not WA/WB, there are a lot of cards that can give you the worst hand here. You've got to be worried about any heart and concerned about the JT straight draw, even KJ/KT with the Kh make J's and T's dangerous.

You're also against a calling station. WA/WB assumes that you wont get much value from worse, calling stations will give you value from worse, so bet.


and the move on the turn was for two reasons- the kind of hands I put them on are lots of draws, made flushes, some combo draws and maybe a straight or worse set.
How did you put them on those hands? MP3 could still have any two cards as long as he has a heart in his hand (and some pairs without a heart), from the description you gave. CO's range is maybe a little more defined, depending on whether or not he's good loose or bad loose but I can see how you can put him on a range.

I was thinking that by checkraising all-in I have the opportunity to get some better hands to fold like small flushes and made straights and some worse hands will call paired K's with a heart or some nutflush draws and some of the worse sets.
Making people (particularly loose players and calling stations) fold straights and sets is almost never going to turn a proffit. It is a scary board, but no one is folding JT/44/99 and the calling station definately isn't folding a K with a heart. Also a lot of the hands that you're going to make fold are hands that will give you value (one pair hands).

Yeah some of the time I'm just gonna get called with the nuts but against the range I figure either of them for I think I'm ahead pretty often.
I agree, getting stacks in at any point in this hand is +EV.
 
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ok on the flop I think WA/WB makes sense. MP3 is going to have any two cards, I consider him a non-issue to be honest if he gets his stack in then whatever. CO calling my preflop bet is basically lots of suited cards, connected cards, broadways, and lots of A's. That means that a lot of his range could hit a flush on the flop. If I raise the flop and get a reraise then maybe I should fold, and a call doesn't make me feel better because at least one heart,small made flushes, combo draws, and a tiny number of two-pair sets hit. And two pair happens almost never.
On the turn again MP3 is whatever maybe a Q, but lots of draws too. CO bets- so maybe he feels good about his weak made flush, his K has paired up and he has the 2nd nut draw and figures me for a q or a draw, A few stray bluffs, straights, and sets make up this range still- tbh i considered the K more of a blank than anything.
My shove had a little other reasoning- if I call and its a better hand- straight or flush- there is no hand that will fold to any bet on the river the pot would be around 8.70 and I would have around 6 behind so I'm pot committed. If I'm not gonna fold then a shove at least puts pressure on the portion of his range that beats me but is not the nuts- it also may get calls from some worse hands and of course folds the bluffs. MP3 is going to do whatever he does and it could be call or fold with equal chances- again non issue. The CO is a pretty decent player and I dont want to get in a situation where I have to call with a hand that ends up being close to top pair in equity in this situation.

Edit: WA/WB because lots of his hands hit this range it could be best for me to control pot size and check, if everyone checks around and a blank hits the turn I can feel better about betting and wont get in a situation where I am pot committed like I was here as a result of a flop bet that drove up the pot size. A fold becomes much easier on the turn and a call is okay since I can call down without committing myself with a marginal hand.
 
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Mamushi

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Just real quick; I think the best reason for checking the flop, even aside from WA/WB, is that you end up pot committed on the turn almost regardless of what happens because you are OOP.

Neither of your oppents is complex enough to double barrel with a draw, so if you check/call the flop a single heart won't hit fire again on the turn. I also think that on this board alot of times TP checks one of those streets too.

Didn't read real carefully though, this is just at first glance.
 
thepokerkid123

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Just real quick; I think the best reason for checking the flop, even aside from WA/WB, is that you end up pot committed on the turn almost regardless of what happens because you are OOP.

What makes you think that's a bad thing? :)

Top set vs calling station even with three cards to a flush is definately a situation where your stack should be going in the middle.
 
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This is why being OOP sucks, yeah its a pretty strong hand given the ranges both of these guys are playing. On the other hand there is a chance- a chance probably larger than 15% that between the two of them they have a flush. By betting the flop I could be feeding a made hand- and I hate feeding the fish. So most of the time I am ahead. However given they are both loose there is also a pretty good chance that they will hit a flush by the river, or a straight. Now If that heart comes on the turn and I checked the flop I can fold pretty easily. By betting I have increased the size of the pot with a hand that may be beat by LOTS of hands, or may become beaten by even more hands. The more I think about it the less happy I am with my Flop bet, given I am out of position, conversely if both of those outs miss the turn I can bet with more certainty on the turn and they will be more wrong to call me. Maybe I'm overthinking this but there you go.
 
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