$10 NLHE 6-max: KK in the SB facing a 3bet

Lemlywinks

Lemlywinks

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$10 NL HE 6-max: KK in the SB facing a 3bet

Feel silly for posting this but this is a spot where I obviously know to raise, but am not sure how much. Assume unknowns, but over the 15 hands I've been at the table, MP is 7/7/- and CO is 15/15/-. Thoughts?

Edit: Stack sizes are important also
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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: $15.45 (154.5 bb)
UTG: $17 (170 bb)
MP: $9.70 (97 bb)
CO: $5.25 (52.5 bb)
BTN: $12.55 (125.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $10.95 (109.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with K:club: K:diamond:
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO folds, BTN raises to $1.80
 
S93

S93

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Its gonna look uber strong but i just bumb it up to 4.5$.

If we where on the BTN and it was the CO 3betting i would like flatting alot since our cold 3bet is gonna look ridic strong and probably fold out alot of hands.

Also u mean BTN is 15/15? or did the converter mess up cause stack sizes are just 97-109BB effective, pretty standard.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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I agree w sindri on the raise size - BTN made a really weird 3bet up to 18BB, no choice but to make the raise at least 45BB if you're 4betting. Might even consider a shove here and hope it looks fishy enough for one or the other to call.

BTN's raise is so huge, though, that I'm wondering if flatting here is a valid option. Normally I wouldn't like that play oop and agree w sindri on how to play this on the button, but it's such a big 3bet that I'm thinking we're definitely folding out a lot of worse hands w a 4bet. Would flatting here (obviously shoving if MP 4bets) and donk shoving any flop that doesn't have an A be really bad? If the board's dry enough, I'd expect to get calls from many pp's (which is what I'm assuming BTN's 3bet represents, low to middle pp).
 
S93

S93

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Well flatting is also gonna look really strong since what hand really cold calls a 18bb 3bet OOP?
Granted if villain is 3betting like this he probably doesnt think about or range to much if we flat.
tbh i didnt really consider flatting to much just cause playing OOP with out the incitive sucks so much it pains me but now that u mention it i defenatly could see donk shoving as a decent option.
I also like the shove simple because it looks so much like AK imo.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Well flatting is also gonna look really strong since what hand really cold calls a 18bb 3bet OOP?
Granted if villain is 3betting like this he probably doesnt think about or range to much if we flat.

Yeah, I'm assuming that 3bet size means he's not that advanced and could fall in love with his hand.
 
Lemlywinks

Lemlywinks

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Isn't the CO committed in you guy's opinion?

Flatting just seems like a bad idear OOP almost always so I ended up jamming, which is debatable, its just the huge 3bet makes it hard to 4bet w/o shoving
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Isn't the CO committed in you guy's opinion?

Flatting just seems like a bad idear OOP almost always so I ended up jamming, which is debatable, its just the huge 3bet makes it hard to 4bet w/o shoving

He ought to be committed, but if he's bad enough to make that 3bet, he's also bad enough to fold to a decent 4bet or shove.

Yeah, completely agree that normally flatting here is a really bad idea, it's only because I think this guy is so bad that I think it's viable, not necessarily optimal, in this specific situation. If MP has a brain, he'll fold anything he opened w short of QQ (and maybe even QQ) because we're flatting 18BB, and if he shoves we're happy to get it in, so flatting will almost certainly get us HU with BTN/CO whatever his position is.

I think sindri's right, though, a pf shove looks so much like AK that it's the best option since I think he's more likely to call a shove than a 4bet.
 
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nobby1510

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I quite like the "fishy" shove at these levels.
 
Mase31683

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I was going to say I don't hate flatting here, but based on the fact that it's $10nl maybe they call 4bets lighter???

If you're not 3/4betting wider, are opponents still going to play with you when you do bump it up? If not, flatting here is pretty good imo. Villain's stack is 125 blinds, and his raise put 18bb into the pot, over 10% of his stack.
If you flat the pot will be 39bb with 107bb effective stacks behind. At these sizes, stacks get all in with a PSB and a 2/3 turn, which is pretty easy to do. Especially when you consider that after flatting the 3bet, villain is very likely to cbet. Just about any raise of that cbet will commit the rest of stacks to a turn shove.

Anyway that's the thinking behind why I don't hate flatting.

However.... if your opponnent is willing to play these pots with you and get more money in preflop, by all means do it. 100bb stacks make 4bets kind of tough, because even if you make it 2.5x, it bumps to $4.5, so the pot will be $9 on the flop with one 1/2 pot bet behind. It's definitely going in on any flop. Since there's no room to play in a 4bet pot here, just bet the most that you're confident the villain will call, then ship it in every time.
 
ImolAyrton

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Was the button aggressive? I would have reraised on the button too with AQ+ and 99+

I would make a large 3bet here.
 
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