$10 NLHE 6-max: KJo 3-bet from BB, BTN flats x/r J high flop

pocketehs

pocketehs

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Easy fold because QQ/KJ? I think its either a call or ship because of SPR but I think its a fold right? Not enough hands to tell whether hes spazzing or not?

Villain: 25/16/1 over 24 hands. 50 (1/2) F3B.


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($10.60)
Hero (BB) ($10.55)
UTG ($50.08)
MP ($10.88)
Villain (Button) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J
club.gif
, K
heart.gif

2 folds, Villain bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.20, Villain calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.45) 9
heart.gif
, J
spade.gif
, 6
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, Villain raises to $4.50, Hero ??
 
ChuckTs

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This is a concept that has been addressed about 400 times in the forums so I won't go too in depth, but read the posts about polarization of 3betting ranges (and depolarization).

The question you should ask yourself isn't 'what do we do on the flop vs a raise?', but 'why are we 3betting preflop?'. The answer to that will help with what you're doing postflop here.
 
JusSumguy

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I agree. I would fold to a big raise with that hand PF.

Specially if I had no info on him.

-
 
pocketehs

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This is a concept that has been addressed about 400 times in the forums so I won't go too in depth, but read the posts about polarization of 3betting ranges (and depolarization).

The question you should ask yourself isn't 'what do we do on the flop vs a raise?', but 'why are we 3betting preflop?'. The answer to that will help with what you're doing postflop here.

ahhhhh I get it ChuckTs. thanks for sending me in the right direction here.
 
JCgrind

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yeah this is definitely not a 3b pre.
 
forsakenone

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easiest call preflop, and one of the biggest mistakes 10nl regs make that prevents them from moving up.
 
Jackle43

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Someone explain to me whats wrong with the 3 bet pre against a button raise? may be a dumb question?
 
Jackle43

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when you are in the blinds vs a late position opener, you should merge your range to include hands like KQ AQ AJ whereas I would frequently flat them in position. The primary reason for this is because the late position openers will flat incorrectly with a wide range. Just think of it like this, if your opponent is always calling from late position to your BB 3-bet with TJs and JQs, you should be 3-betting hands like KQ and AJ and try to stack your opponents when you flop top pair. Wheras, if I am the BTN and 3-bet there CO open they are less likely to call out of position with TJs and QJs type hands.

no?
 
Yoshimiii

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Someone explain to me whats wrong with the 3 bet pre against a button raise? may be a dumb question?

3 betting in blinds against a button raise is completely fine most times if the raiser is stealing quite often, isn't a nit, and can actually fold to 3 bets and/or cbets. If you don't have this combination and you 3 bet a mediocre hand e.g. K/J, you are building a big pot OOP with a hand that can be dominated easily as probably only better hands are calling your 3 bet (depending on villain). This is my take on it anyway, others might have different opinions.

Also the more money that goes in pre-flop, the less skill is involved post-flop, due to stack-pot ratio's. That's why I like to call alot and try to outplay opponents post-flop that are clearly weaker than me.

It depends on the villain really.
 
pocketehs

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Ill explain when I get home today if someone hasnt! :)
 
ChuckTs

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fwiw I'm 3betting this %100 of the time vs this villain. My reason for mentioning the 3bet preflop is because I think if we are 3betting it pf then this flop decision is a slam dunk.
 
pocketehs

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fwiw I'm 3betting this %100 of the time vs this villain. My reason for mentioning the 3bet preflop is because I think if we are 3betting it pf then this flop decision is a slam dunk.

great now im confused again lol please explain?


So heres what Ive come across so far while discussing this hand with other CC members.

Polarized 3bet range - nuts or air.

Depolarized 3bet range - middle equity hands / hands we think we can value bet

OOP we pretty much only want to have a polarized range because if we 3bet a buttons open, hes going to fold all the hands that are worse than KJo and either call or raise all the hands that are worse.

Which makes it a tough decision when we spike TPGK on the flop and get x/r with a SPR that is larger than if we just called.


IP a depolarized 3bet range is probably best (esp against fish) because we are 3betting hands that do well equity-wise vs wide ranges where fish are more likely to just call it anyways. So logically it makes more sense for us to have a range that has more equity rather than a range that has hands with either a lot of equity or not very much.

Without looking at all of his range lets just look at four hands - two that beat us, and two that we beat. Say we look at AJ / QJ / KQ / KT. Which do we think hes going to fold to a 3bet pre and which hes going to call? I think probably call AJ KQ and will most likely fold QJ KT. Easy enough he folds worse and calls better but if we flat then we can get at least 2 streets of value when a K or a J come on the flop.

Please let me know if Im wrong anywhere in here!
 
pocketehs

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great now im confused again lol please explain?

I think you're 3betting this player 100% of the time because of the gap between his VPIP/PFR meaning he probably calls a lot more than he should and is passive. Also his AF is 1.0 meaning hes passive and doesnt raise a lot. I think you're 3betting here so that when he misses OTF, we c-bet and take down a larger pot? Like because he looks fishy, we raise knowing hes going to flat a lot then steal OTF?
 
ChuckTs

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Polarized 3bet range - nuts or air.

Depolarized 3bet range - middle equity hands / hands we think we can value bet

Yes.

Now think about this:

AK in just about any situation vs a fish with TP postflop is a 3-street+ value hand.

AK for TPTK vs a nit, utg vs btn, in full ring, is maybe a 2-street value hand at best.

Value is relative

OOP we pretty much only want to have a polarized range because if we 3bet a buttons open, hes going to fold all the hands that are worse than KJo and either call or raise all the hands that are worse.

Says who?

Villain is 25/16 over only 24 hands. It helps when we know if part of that is limps as well, since

He folds JTs?

QJo?

67s?

What about the times he calls AJs, a better hand, but since we have the initiative we get him to fold the majority of flops?


You're on the right track with your thinking, but I think your assumptions of villain and players in general is incorrect.

******************

You have two main factors in deciding to polarize your 3betting range or not.

1) Villain's quality of play, ie is he good or bad, ie does make good folds, or does he make too many calls, ie a 22/19 vs a 32/7. Simple.

2) Our relative position to villain. In position, or out of position.

If villain is bad: never 3bet a hand like 57s. If he's calling with T8s/A5s/78o every time, you're coolering/value cutting yourself.

If villain is good, generally don't 3bet a hand like AJo. If he's 4bet bluffing well, and doesn't call with worse very often, then we're putting ourselves in a lot of spots where we have to fold to a 4bet bluff pf, or we're in tough postflop spots being unsure what to do with our pairs and draws. Don't fool yourself into thinking it's ok since a good chunk of the time regs will c/f the flop or fold to obvious double barrels. You can make them do that with 57s too.

In short, it comes down to this:

IN POSITION:

-Vs a fish, 3bet a depolarized range.
-Vs a regular, 3bet a polarized range.

OUT OF POSITION:

-Vs a fish, 3bet a depolarized range.
-Vs a regular, it depends on the individual, but tend to depolarize your range


Being out of position, a lot of regs will start to call with stuff like T8s and A5s that they shouldn't be (and tend not to 4bet bluff as much since they have position), and in this effect they play more like a 'bad' player, so tend to depolarize your range against them again. Again, if they're calling with T8s, 3betting AJs isn't going to put you in as many trouble spots. But again that depends on the villain. Some are positionally unaware, some tend to like to call 3bets IP and OOP, and some are the opposite. Play accordingly.

The only thing that remains the same is that bad players play bad everywhere and in any relative position, and as such we should just stick to value betting them all the time, even if the value is sometimes thin. 3bet a depolarized range everywhere.
 
pocketehs

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I really appreciate you taking the time to write this post ChuckTs. Thanks!
 
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