$10 NLHE 6-max: JJ overpair on flop villain raises all in

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roddy1977

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 28/21/46

Full Tilt, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools by CardRunners - http://www.cardrunners.com/

Hero (UTG): $23 (230 bb)
MP: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $7.82 (78.2 bb)
BTN: $22.05 (220.5 bb)
SB: $5 (50 bb)
BB: $10.42 (104.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jd Jh
Hero raises to $0.30, MP raises to $1, CO calls $1, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($3.15) 4s 2d 2s (3 players)
Hero bets $2, MP raises to $9 and is all-in, CO calls $6.82 and is all-in, Hero ????


Couple of questions here - should I be 4 betting here (or even folding), rather than calling pre flop? I guess if I 4 bet I stand more chance of finding out if my Jacks are good, especially when the flop comes and they are probably only behind to AA KK or QQ.

And what should I do on the flop when MP pushes all in and CO calls? I haven't seen either player do anything particularly rash, though MP seems a bit fishy and is leaking chips.

MP stats VP 28/ PFR 21 / AF 46 /Hands 171 / -$17
CO stats VP 32/ PFR 2 / AF 54 / Hands 63 / +$12










 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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3-bet % is pretty important here, but all indications are your Jacks were beat preflop. When you raise UTG, and get 3-bet, they're usually not messing around.
 
IPlay

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I fold pre here, you are beat pre and the villains are to short stacked to make set mining profitable.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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11% is high, 4-bet and call it off unless the fish shoves.
 
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hffjd2000

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I think even if you 4bet, one of them is still determine to call you up especially MP. I think your hand is just second rate preflop.

Lastly, the flop still says your just second so folding here is the best option.
 
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roddy1977

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Thanks for the opinions. This hand was rather frustrating as I folded and it turned out MP had 43s!!! The CO had TT so I would've taken it down if I'd called. However I guess folding was correct as I'd probably be a dog most of the time. I wish I'd 4 bet pre flop, as I probably could've ruled out QQ,KK or AA if I had and could've called.
 
Arjonius

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4betting, while I'm not thrilled to do so, seems better than the other options. You say MP is kind of fishy, and he does have a high enough 3bet % that we're ahead of him, maybe 3:2 or so. CO is loose passive, but even so, how likely is it that he'd flat with a hand that's ahead of ours? Best guess at his range is something like middle pairs plus big aces.

Folding seems overly conservative, and if we call, we have to expect a large majority of flops will include at least one over, which fits MP's range much better than ours. So if we call pre-, we're effectively set mining or will be looking at leading the flop into 2 opponents.

Considering all this, I'd rather 4bet.
 
John A

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What is the purpose of the flop bet? What worse hands are you expecting to call multi-way here? It's a snap fold on the flop once you are shoved on and called. Pre-flop is debatable. I think multi-way I might lean towards just folding since you'll be OOP against two players.

Someone can do the math on 4-betting. I think it's pretty close EV wise. There's no way you have more than 35% equity versus both players, but with dead money in, etc.. it might be slightly +EV to 4-bet, but we're talking a couple of big blinds. The lower variance play is to fold pre-flop.
 
Figaroo2

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It would be the cut off coming along on this hand that I would have been worried about and seeing he has virtually no pfr I would expect to be flipping with him at best. 4 betting JJ here isnt good imo the CO is coming along regardless. We either 4 bet for value or to bluff and JJ doesnt fit either in this scenario. 4 bet folding JJ just sucks and with 2 bucks plus already out there a 4 bet pretty much prices you in to call it off anyway. Preflop is difficult I would take a flop and check for information.
I agree with John. I saw the flop donk lead out and grimmaced, a bet in the dark if ever i saw one. Once you decide to call You should check the flop and assess once they bet, look how much information they gave you....... I fold to two all in flop shoves. Obviously 4 betting or shoving pre would have won but how often are you up against an overpair to your jj here....fairly frequently...
 
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T0mmmi

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Hi man !

After reading the above , I would definitely Fold as it pretty much seen that You are behind. > At least one of them is certainly folding QQ+ and the other just might flopped set or is too loose.

The question regarding preF 4bet >>> I guess they both would call >>> so no point of wasting more chips preF and after the Flop ...we know what has happened

Anyway Good Luck @TAbles !
 
Four Dogs

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Getting 2:1 you only have to be good 33% of the time. Could he do this with AK, AQ, TT. I think so.
 
Arjonius

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Getting 2:1 you only have to be good 33% of the time. Could he do this with AK, AQ, TT. I think so.
What he could do it with isn't the most appropriate question. What matters more is what your equity is vs his weighted range taking into account the probabilities of various holdings, not just whether they're possible or not.
 
Karozi615

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do you have a HUD?

because players are shallow its kind of a weird spot to just call preflop, a 4bet seems appropriate
 
Four Dogs

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What he could do it with isn't the most appropriate question. What matters more is what your equity is vs his weighted range taking into account the probabilities of various holdings, not just whether they're possible or not.
I was in a bit of a rush when i wrote this this morning so I guess I could have been clearer. What I meant was, are there enough hands that you beat in his range, including bluffs, weaker pairs, high cards and the like to give you the odds to call? IMO the answer is yes, just barely.
 
Arjonius

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I was in a bit of a rush when i wrote this this morning so I guess I could have been clearer. What I meant was, are there enough hands that you beat in his range, including bluffs, weaker pairs, high cards and the like to give you the odds to call? IMO the answer is yes, just barely.
I still wonder if you're just looking at his range without weighting it. 35% card odds when you need 33% to BE is only +EV if all the holdings in his range are equally probable.

But what if they're not? As a simplified example, let's assume he would have taken the line he did 100% of the time with the entire part of his range that beats you, but that with the part you beat, he would have folded at some earlier point 1/2 the time. Weighting his range in this manner changes the effective card odds from 35% to 17.5%
 
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roddy1977

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John A - I guess I led out on the flop to protect my Jacks, wary of the flush draw and the chance of an overcard hitting on the turn. Though I guess my main priority should've been working out if my Jacks were good and ultimately I'm not sure betting rather than checking helped in that regard. If neither player had raised my bet I would've been pretty sure that my JJ was good and could've potentially shoved on the turn. However bearing in mind the pre flop action could I reasonably expect both players not to raise? Probably not.
Also I think I could expect action potentially from pocket pairs lower than my Jacks - for instance, if MP hadn't shoved, would've the CO with TT have folded? Probably not.
So I'd like to think my flop bet wasn't completely fishy, though I do agree checking would've been better!
 
Four Dogs

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I still wonder if you're just looking at his range without weighting it. 35% card odds when you need 33% to BE is only +EV if all the holdings in his range are equally probable.

But what if they're not? As a simplified example, let's assume he would have taken the line he did 100% of the time with the entire part of his range that beats you, but that with the part you beat, he would have folded at some earlier point 1/2 the time. Weighting his range in this manner changes the effective card odds from 35% to 17.5%

You're probably right, and I'm sure that you're beat here most of the time but you really don't have enough information to fold based on the action alone. What is the point of calling a 3xrr pre-flop then folding to a flop that changes nothing? You'd be better off folding pre-flop and I'd actually advocate that in certain situations but v. normal .05/.10 player pool? I lean towards the call.
 
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