$10 NLHE 6-max: JJ in the blinds

Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $10.86 (VPIP: 42.25, PFR: 23.94, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, hands: 74)
BTN: $10.96 (VPIP: 17.73, PFR: 13.77, 3Bet Preflop: 4.60, Hands: 1,038)
SB: $8.00 (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
Hero (BB): $10.00
UTG: $10.00 (VPIP: 25.81, PFR: 19.35, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 32)
MP: $11.80 (VPIP: 28.30, PFR: 26.42, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 54)

SB posts SB $0.05, Hero posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J:heart: J:spade:

fold, MP raises to $0.35, CO raises to $1.20, fold, fold, Hero raises to $10.00 and is all-in, fold, CO calls $8.80
 
S

seventhsense

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4 bet to 2.70 ish if you are 4 betting. Shipping folds out a bunch of hands we beat.
 
IPlay

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Strange spot. CO is loose but has a tight 3bet. It may only be one time in the 74 hand sample so I probably cold call JJ here and see a flop. Idk what we do if MP ships and CO folds though. I think we fold because he doesn't have much incentive to bluff when he can see a flop multiway with his speculatives. He also looks like the kind of guy we want to keep in the pot.
 
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seventhsense

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Strange spot. CO is loose but has a tight 3bet. It may only be one time in the 74 hand sample so I probably cold call JJ here and see a flop. Idk what we do if MP ships and CO folds though. I think we fold because he doesn't have much incentive to bluff when he can see a flop multiway with his speculatives. He also looks like the kind of guy we want to keep in the pot.

Yeah. I'm not a huge fan of flatting for this reason but it is far betting than jamming.

The reason I prefer to 4 bet is because I frequently have <100 sample sizes where my 3 bet is 0-4%. Then others where I look like an monkey. I would def keep the 4 bet on the smallish side though so we get a lot of calls from weaker hands. If he ships it then we vomit and call it off.
 
Four Dogs

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If CO only does this with AK JJ-AA then your JJ is crushed. If he's 3betting wider than shoving only folds out the hands worse than that. Just plugging in some numbers I give JJ about 30% equity v most probable ranges which means you'd be calling $1.10 to protect about $.50, not great.

I don't like raising for the same reasons, way OOP with a weak 4 betting hand that will have to fold to a shove. I'm not going to raise Pf just to turn my hand into a bluff on the 50% of flops with cards higher than a Jack.

I don't see how this hand easily unfolds in your favor.

1) Call, MP shoves. ???
2) Call, MP calls and the board comes all low. ???
3) Call, MP calls and the board comes high. ???
or
4) Call, MP calls and you flop a Jack. YAY!!!

I like option 4 too but the price is too high. I think it's a fold but in real time I probably just call.
 
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jsh169

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Jacks here is a bluff catcher at best, this guy hasn't been out of line at all, the hands your in ok shape against ak/aq you can evaluate on the flop, you get this guy to play perfectly against you by 4 betting. Now I am not saying never to 4 bet Jacks, but vs this villain's perceived range I can't see it being a great play. Shoving is the worst because you fold out all worse except maybe ak.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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thanks four dogs... yeah ill just fold medium pp in this spot.
 
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nicolas jesus

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It's a complicated situation. Making just call pre flop is a very transparent move, your range is tt jj
* The topic of making only call pre flop is that you have a well-constructed range of cold call is not to face up
at the same time make 4 bet to fold to a 5 bet is to burn money.
It is also standard as I think you played
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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yeah i figured to call and end up foldinf to overcards on the flop and turn seemed pointless and i didnt want to fold thats why i shoved.
 
Aces2w1n

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Well, unless you can think of a way to lose less, yeah.


You panicked.

more fustrated cuz its a good hand and there has to be a way to play it better so i tried something diff.

hmmm would it be neutral to call pre or -ev
 
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jsh169

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Way to many unknowns to answer that question correctly how is Js vs his 3 betting range, how well will you play post flop?
 
Four Dogs

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more fustrated cuz its a good hand and there has to be a way to play it better so i tried something diff.

hmmm would it be neutral to call pre or -ev
I wouldn't be surprised if calling were slightly -EV but honestly I don't see myself folding this in real time either. I think I just call and check the flop like 100%.
 
Aces2w1n

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yeah i been trying to add neutral plays in my game i guess to balance my stats... esp fold to 3bets in position but i guess i need to work on my ranges still.

but thats another topic. for now im just going to post hands from the blinds this week and just really clean up my blind play cuz i feel its messy
 
Four Dogs

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yeah i been trying to add neutral plays in my game i guess to balance my stats... esp fold to 3bets in position but i guess i need to work on my ranges still.

but thats another topic. for now im just going to post hands from the blinds this week and just really clean up my blind play cuz i feel its messy
I'll look for them. GL
 
John A

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Call pre. This is likely what's happening... MP has been opening almost 2 napkins, and very active. Fishy CO who likes to play hands decides to re-raise in position with some kind of decent hand, but not amazing hand because he's tired of MP (or sometimes he really just has something). But having seen this dynamic I'd just have flatted pre and looked to play a flop with the fish, or 4-bet small to push out the reg MP and play the fish HU's. Either is fine and better than shoving.
 
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ekgbeat

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OP, I think that you put yourself in a tough spot with the jam. Initially, I thought that CO was super aggressive, but you have limited history. I would feel more comfortable jamming if those were his stats after 1K hands. Also three betting the opener with 4 players to go seems strong.

With that said I would flat, and pray that big cards don't fall on the flop. No, need to jam pre since you are not getting worst to call. Maybe 10s call, but not many combos of that.

When will you post how this ends?
 
Aces2w1n

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lol i wont cuz it doesnt matter... unless 3 ppl want it. then ill find it.

the choice matters :)
 
Four Dogs

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With that said I would flat, and pray that big cards don't fall on the flop. No, need to jam pre since you are not getting worst to call. Maybe 10s call, but not many combos of that.

When will you post how this ends?
And if they don't, what then? Do you donk? Check? What's you're plan?
 
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ekgbeat

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lol i wont cuz it doesnt matter... unless 3 ppl want it. then ill find it.

the choice matters :)

Why doesn't it matter? I think it helps the posters know if their line of thinking is correct, and it helps clear up the discussion about the hand.

And if they don't, what then? Do you donk? Check? What's you're plan?

Well, if you think the villain's stats are valid and they are indeed aggro, then I would become a station and check call the flop and turn, based on the turn card, I would check raise if it doesn't improve V's perceived range. If it does improve range, then I'm check folding or calling depending on bet sizing.

If I don't believe the stats based on sample size and play, then I check raise the flop. If V, continues aggression on later streets then I'm check calling until board gets too scary. Ultimately, I think everyone is pretty deep so there will be better spots to play against this player once we have better data so folding is fine after the flop based on bet size. Why get out of line for a coin flip at best?

Couple of questions back:

Do you think that the stats are valid enough to use in the decision?

If so, or if not, then what range do you put the villain on?
 
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Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Why doesn't it matter? I think it helps the posters know if their line of thinking is correct, and it helps clear up the discussion about the hand.



Well, if you think the villain's stats are valid and they are indeed aggro, then I would become a station and check call the flop and turn, based on the turn card, I would check raise if it doesn't improve V's perceived range. If it does improve range, then I'm check folding or calling depending on bet sizing.

If I don't believe the stats based on sample size and play, then I check raise the flop. If V, continues aggression on later streets then I'm check calling until board gets too scary. Ultimately, I think everyone is pretty deep so there will be better spots to play against this player once we have better data so folding is fine after the flop based on bet size. Why get out of line for a coin flip at best?

Couple of questions back:

Do you think that the stats are valid enough to use in the decision?

If so, or if not, then what range do you put the villain on?


it doesnt matter cuz we assign a range and perhaps this time i got lucky or unlucky... most of us see so many hands we already know but doesnt mean we dont get leaks or bad plays in our game so we check or ask about diff plays...

thats why this hand is interesring because its a diff line wrong or right but it just raises a few questions and important ones
 
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ChrisMurray

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10NL JJ Hand Review

Hi Aces2w1n. I'll try and go through this hand in some detail.

Pre-flop: So, MP raises here. He seems like a pretty loose, very aggressive player. He can have a pretty wide raising range from MP, something like 22+, A9o+, A2s+, KTo+, K8s+, QTo+, Q9s+, JTo, J9s+, 65s+, T8s.
Now, the CO makes a standard sized 3-bet (3.5x), but his stats are interesting. You have some data on him, and it looks like he's a very loose, passive player. It doesn't look like he plays well, it looks like he calls in spots where he shouldn't. He also only 3-bets premium hands by the looks of it. The thing is, we don't have enough of a sample size to even take notice of his 3-bet stat. We need at least 100 hands before we even consider it. He does seem somewhat passive though, so I'd give him a range of QQ+, AK, KQs, ATs and A2s-A5s. We give him a few bluffs, as well as a pretty tight value range.
Now, it comes to us with JJ. Let's be clear, calling is a bad play in this spot. Firstly, it pretty much turns out hand face-up because most of the time when people call in these spots, it's a medium pocket pair or AQ. This allows our opponents to read us easily and play perfectly against us. Secondly, we're OOP against two players, one of which still has the chance to 4-bet, which would really suck for us. Thirdly, because we're OOP, we're pretty much going to have to fold to a bet on any unfavourable flop, due to A, K and Q high flops hitting our opponents range a lot. No, calling isn't an option.
I think against a fishy player, JJ is too strong to fold. If we had more data (and CO was 3.45 3-bet over say 200 hands), we could get away from this, but the sample just isn't big enough to suppose his range crushes us. I would suggest a raise, 4-betting this.
I notice some commenters have suggested a small 4-bet, and whilst that would usually be the optimal play, we must take into account our opponent's tendencies. He's a calling station, that much is obvious. He's likely to make bad calls for lots of cash, so let's give him a chance to do that and shove this. Just 4-bet jam, as OP has done, and he's likely to call with his entire range, a lot of which we beat (or flip against). Out of the 58 combos in the range I gave him, only 18 beat us. Any bluffs (A2s-A5s) will probably fold (although who knows against this type of player) so that's another 16 combos we win a small pot against. If he calls with the rest of his range we're usually on the right side of a coin flip. Plus, fish always have the potential to go completely nuts, there's a small chance he has absolutely nothing, is on tilt and will call anyway!

Think you played this perfectly. It's a really rough spot, and as I say, against a tighter player, or if we had a better sample on his 3-bet, I would probably muck this, but I think we can still get called by plenty of worse hands against a probable station. But 4-betting small ($2.90-3.10) also has some merit, although you can never 4-bet fold in this spot, so you'd have to call it off. You could also fold this, it'd be on the tight side, but at least you avoid a tricky spot so I don't mind that either. I don't particularly like calling in these spots, but it's not an awful play.

Basically, no option here is too bad.
 
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renatoAD

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I always give reise with JJ , however if someone already has done reise UTG or MP , I only paid if you hit the J on the flop or the board bring letters below J , and he c -bet I 3 bet , and then embrace the allin allin from the other player is up to 40 % of my stack if I fold higher !
 
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ludomaniaco24

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thanks four dogs... yeah ill just fold medium pp
 
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