$10 NLHE 6-max: JJ hand hmm should we call?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $11.12 (VPIP: 27.14, PFR: 23.30, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, hands: 290)
BTN: $12.58 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 42.86, Hands: 11)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 42.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: $12.47 (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 21.68, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 151)
UTG: $13.33 (VPIP: 27.34, PFR: 23.44, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 132)
Hero (MP): $9.92

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J:spade: J:diamond:

fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, fold, fold

Flop: ($1.20, 3 players) 4:heart: 6:diamond: Q:diamond:
Hero bets $0.86, fold, BTN raises to $2.30, fold

BTN wins $2.79



I folded this and generally in 2NL and 5NL people who do this please have the nuts or better. What i'm finding is that in 10NL a lot of the times I'm finding a lot of air with people re-raising. Anyways give some feedback and let me know what you think.

First off, turn auto top up on

Villain seems very fishy here even over 11 hands however we do not yet have any idea of his tendencies... Laying this down and waiting for a better spot is probably best here, although it kinda sucks and is probably an exploitable fold against thinking players.

If I had some history/notes/stats etc that indicate villain did this with a wide range, draws, under pairs etc I may jam JJ here with the Jd but that would be a very read based play and in no way standard.

I wouldn't fold there as condeck has said he has been very fishy in the 11 hands played but then again if you feel that he has the nuts and is over betting it would be wise to fold.

Good fold. Going crazy with JJ would be bad in that flop.

KLDUFF1987 said:

I wouldn't fold there as condeck has said he has been very fishy in the 11 hands played but then again if you feel that he has the nuts and is over betting it would be wise to fold.

Click to expand...

I don't think we are necessariy up against the nuts often (66 and 44, as QQ is a raise preflop for sure given his already high 3b%) but he has a bunch of Qx in his range and raising TP is common among these fishy type players...

Finding folds in situation like this when you have no info is a profitable play. And you have to think step ahead. If you raise here what is he calling with ? Sure you ll find under pairs or some crazy gut shots and flush draws but mostly you will be up against a queen. And what are you going to do if you call and he bets again ? The pot will be around 6$ and you will find yourself in a big pot with a marginal hand that cant call further bets unless a J comes on the turn.

ConDeck said:

First off, turn auto top up on

Villain seems very fishy here even over 11 hands however we do not yet have any idea of his tendencies... Laying this down and waiting for a better spot is probably best here, although it kinda sucks and is probably an exploitable fold against thinking players.

If I had some history/notes/stats etc that indicate villain did this with a wide range, draws, under pairs etc I may jam JJ here with the Jd but that would be a very read based play and in no way standard.

Click to expand...

lol I do have auto top on... but i'm 24 tabling and i was in red zone at 10NL... was about to go back down to 5NL.

My cutoff BR would've been under $200 then i would've went 5NL but lucky enough I'm back over $300 now but I'm still working hard on my game, never take anything for granted.

Thanks for your feedback love it. And yes I'm afraid of exploitable spots. I have found a lot of fishy players raising with air and have lost a lot at the beginning with 10NL with folding too much. I have had to grow some and play totally different than 2NL and 5NL. Not everything is what it seems at 10NL lol.

Standard fold, especially since we hold the Jd which blocks alot of his flush draw combos.

I would be taking a check call line against this villain.

When you move up in stakes you should cut down your number of tables until you get a good feel of the level and swings.

IPlay said:

When you move up in stakes you should cut down your number of tables until you get a good feel of the level and swings.

Click to expand...

I was going to add this actually after reading the last few of your posts... Id be sticking to 4-8 tables and thinking more, paying more attention to player tendencies, ranges etc etc. Playing that volume of tables is more like auto pilot and only really doable profitably when you have a large amount experience at that stake.

Increasing volume will always decrease win rate and its the volume itself that makes up for this, but as reading your last few posts you are breaking evenish at the 10NL currently, dropping to 12, even 8 tables should see your win rate increase significantly and you can gradually increase the volume as you get more comfortable.

The whole thing for me atm is grinding 24tables no matter what and seeing what happens.

What if to make up for not going down tables but increasing the amount of buy-ins before climbing?

I was going to do 30buy-ins for 20NL before going up? but perhaps i'll do 50 buy-ins to give myself some time to adapt.

Volumne will help me adapt quicker? As long as i hang in there?

You guys are right dropping down to 12 tables etc but it's not what I'm all about with my thread. I'm insane i know..

If i fail 10NL and climb back up i'll do 12 tables.

As long as you follow good BRM, it really doesn't matter but it will hurt your winrate so you probably want to have even stricter BRM. I would recommend 50 buy ins if you are trying to move through the stakes 24 tabling(Playing stakes you can comfortably beat, 30BI is fine). Hopefully you are getting some kind of good rakeback with all this volume?

Aces2w1n said:

Volumne will help me adapt quicker? As long as i hang in there?

Click to expand...

In that case good luck... we all have our own strategies and there are many approaches that all work.

In regards to the above point though I would say that depends... Time frame possibly but you risk going broke in the process, number of hands actually probably not as you are paying less attention to each specific spot, just my opinion though.

I have been following you thread and will continue to do so.

Aces2w1n said:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $11.12 (VPIP: 27.14, PFR: 23.30, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 290)
BTN: $12.58 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 42.86, Hands: 11)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 42.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: $12.47 (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 21.68, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 151)
UTG: $13.33 (VPIP: 27.34, PFR: 23.44, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 132)
Hero (MP): $9.92

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='red'>♦</font>

fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, fold, fold

Flop: ($1.20, 3 players) 4<font color='red'>♥</font> 6<font color='red'>♦</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets $0.86, fold, BTN raises to $2.30, fold

BTN wins $2.79



I folded this and generally in 2NL and 5NL people who do this please have the nuts or better. What i'm finding is that in 10NL a lot of the times I'm finding a lot of air with people re-raising. Anyways give some feedback and let me know what you think.

Click to expand...

I have found in the lower no limit games such as .05/.10 if you have someone raise from the amounts from .86 to 2.30 (similar in range) with an over card on the board the player will normally have the Q in the hole or have a pair of Queens covered. You made a good fold. Best just to watch the players action and get your stack in the middle with them when you flop a set or second pair to counter their possible bluffs.

IPlay said:

As long as you follow good BRM, it really doesn't matter but it will hurt your winrate so you probably want to have even stricter BRM. I would recommend 50 buy ins if you are trying to move through the stakes 24 tabling(Playing stakes you can comfortably beat, 30BI is fine). Hopefully you are getting some kind of good rakeback with all this volume?

Click to expand...

Yeh 30 bi was 10nl and then 50 for 20nl and eventually i want to do 100 bi and then 200 bi if i ever make it one day

Aces2w1n said:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: $11.12 (VPIP: 27.14, PFR: 23.30, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 290)
BTN: $12.58 (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 42.86, Hands: 11)
SB: $10.00 (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 42.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: $12.47 (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 21.68, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 151)
UTG: $13.33 (VPIP: 27.34, PFR: 23.44, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 132)
Hero (MP): $9.92

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has J<font color='black'>♠</font> J<font color='red'>♦</font>

fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, BTN calls $0.35, fold, fold

Flop: ($1.20, 3 players) 4<font color='red'>♥</font> 6<font color='red'>♦</font> Q<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets $0.86, fold, BTN raises to $2.30, fold

BTN wins $2.79



I folded this and generally in 2NL and 5NL people who do this please have the nuts or better. What i'm finding is that in 10NL a lot of the times I'm finding a lot of air with people re-raising. Anyways give some feedback and let me know what you think.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't have bet out on the flop. When a overcard comes I'll usually check call 1 opponent and check fold vs 2. A weak made hand with some showdown value will usually bet once and then check it down. Don't feel obligated to C-bet every hand.

Four Dogs said:

I wouldn't have bet out on the flop. When a overcard comes I'll usually check call 1 opponent and check fold vs 2. A weak made hand with some showdown value will usually bet once and then check it down. Don't feel obligated to C-bet every hand.

Click to expand...

Agree. Not sure what we gain by cbetting the flop.

As you move up players will be paying attention to your cbet %.
I will raise with air in position on dry/ragged flops against looser villains who cbet more than 80% over decent sample. 2/3 of the time you know they have nothing.
Here you are either way ahead or way behind. The standard line is to check call to allow bluffs to fire. So we always check call once and if they fire twice you're probably beat and can safely fold.

i would gladly 4bet shove this one and play it like they do. gamble.

i personally don't think micro stakes are profitable or even playable in the long run. because people don't really care about a few cents or a couple of bucks in the pot. so they don't mind raising with air. too much gambling in the micros. not even Aces hold up often with these donks.

The thing here is, if we continue, what would we do if he fires another barrel on later street?

I dont want to complicate and guess myself out.

masadad said:

i would gladly 4bet shove this one and play it like they do. gamble.

i personally don't think micro stakes are profitable or even playable in the long run. because people don't really care about a few cents or a couple of bucks in the pot. so they don't mind raising with air. too much gambling in the micros. not even Aces hold up often with these donks.

Click to expand...

So because people play bad it's hard to win??? One of us is very confused as to where our profit comes from in poker...

i say crap like that at times when frustrated. so ples ignore.

i will actually call that bet. check/fold the turn if another diamond falls. only 11 hands on that villain and he played all of them. so he could be holding anything. i'd rather pick another spot and trap him later.

So some players might be wondering "why don't we bet out here?". Well, I guess the better question is "why do we ever bet at all?" There are only two reasons we should ever bet, for VALUE, and as a BLUFF. Some people might say we also bet for INFORMATION and for PROTECTION but betting to protect your hand is really just another form of value bet, and betting solely for information is just bad poker.

In the hand above you're OOP and an overcard comes on the flop as it will 57% of the time (See my hyperlinked chart on Low Board Probability in my signature below). Since this is such a common occurrence with JJ you need to have a plan that's going to maximize your wins and minimize your losses and it can't just be BET BET BET. I don't think this is a bluff so what hands are you trying to get value from? Sure you might get a single call from a lot of weaker made hands like A4, A6, as well as many drawing hands, but you'll also get called by any Queen or even slow played by 2 pair or a set. Either way, you'll have no way of knowing until your 50bb's in, and the most likely outcome if you do get called down to the river is not often one you'll want to brag about.

You might think "No way am I going to bet 3 times with 2nd pair to the board" and that's a good thought, but if you're only going to bet once then why not do it with a little more information? While betting for information may not be a good idea, checking for information is just fine. When you check, any queen will usually bet, so a check back pretty much always rules that out allowing you to profitably bet on a blank turn and maybe extract value from a draw or a weaker made. It also has the benefit of keeping the pot from getting bloated when you don't have the best of it. Save the big pots for the big hands.

Generally im aim around the 65-70% cbet range