$10 NLHE 6-max: Flopped straight, turn completes flush

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ScottishMatt

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poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 2228427
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $15.78
Hero (BTN): $10.00
SB: $10.00
BB: $10.00
UTG: $18.19

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with Q
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J
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1 fold, CO raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.65) T
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K
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9
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(3 players)
BB checks, CO bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.40, BB folds, CO calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.45) 4
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(2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

River: ($3.45) K
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(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.10, CO calls $2.10


Do I absolutely have to make it bigger on the flop? After the turn I decided to just take it to showdown the K on the river practically demands a valuebet right?
 
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themosthigh

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bet fold the turn for $2
 
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baudib1

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i think i like 3-betting pre rather than flatting. Flop is fine, bet the turn.
 
frozensprx

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Number of flush draws in his range are heavily outweighed by the number of one pair/ broadway hands that would bet/call on the flop. His bet is also really large for a flush draw blocking bet so I would think it less likely for him to have a flush. Some value missed on turn but other than that fine.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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bet the turn BIG. its highly unlikely that he just made a flush. but it is more likely that he picked up a flush draw,which in combination with him already having a piece of the board,will happily make him pay. shove turn.(if not shove,i like overbet too)
 
Aleksei

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Number of flush draws in his range are heavily outweighed by the number of one pair/ broadway hands that would bet/call on the flop. His bet is also really large for a flush draw blocking bet so I would think it less likely for him to have a flush. Some value missed on turn but other than that fine.

bet the turn BIG. its highly unlikely that he just made a flush. but it is more likely that he picked up a flush draw,which in combination with him already having a piece of the board,will happily make him pay. shove turn.(if not shove,i like overbet too)
Not just here. On ANY 2-tone board with 2 broadways, pairs and overs always outnumber flushes.

So basically I agree. Play this hand faster and happily look to get stacks in.
 
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ScottishMatt

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So we bet the turn and get raised then what?

Honestly how many one pair hands do you think a player at these stakes is paying us off with on a straight + flush board? Happy to get stacks in? Say what?

AdK is the only one pair hand that makes it to the river in order to pay us off. If we bet the turn JdK is definitely folding, QdK might peel once in a blue moon. Thinking more on this AdA will play this way and we can extract on the turn but it's going to fold the river. I mean seriously what can we extract from here for 3 streets?
 
Aleksei

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So we bet the turn and get raised then what?

Honestly how many one pair hands do you think a player at these stakes is paying us off with on a straight + flush board?
Straights and flushes aren't overly common even in straight + flush boards, but straight + flush boards looks scary so tricky players like to bluff them. If villain thinks we're even slightly full of shit we can thus bet the stronger part of our non-nut range (2 pair, pair, sets) and stronger for value because he'll often be bluffcatching with TPTK and better (remember, if we fire 2/3 pot on the river we just have to be bluffing 28% of the time for bluffcatching to be profitable, and it's very easy to bluff more than value-bet on that type of board because value bet ranges are so strong).
 
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You seem to be leveling yourself into believing that villain is better than he is. Really, bluffcatching at 10NL . . .

Lets just assume that villain is as intelligent as you suppose, he isn't going to flat a flop raise OOP on a wet board with TPGK.

Again if we assume villain is as intelligent as you give him credit for and is able to do on the spot analysis in order to come up with the same numbers you did, he will also be able to factor into account my table image and how I've been playing. If you are going to give him as much credit as you happen to do by default then we need to take into account so many more factors. Ones such as table dynamic and my image as well as his perceived image. I mean it's just too much for a 10NL player to factor into his decision on the spot. You are leveling yourself way too much here.


Fact is. The only people who bluffcatch are fish, if he was a fish I would have indicated so in the original post. Does a 4x CO raise look like a fishy move to you? I think it's safe to assume villain will never flat a flop raise and call two barrels more for 100BB with nothing but KJ on a super wet board. It just isn't going to happen. Ever.
 
Aleksei

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sigh... I guess you're right. I just tend to value bet fairly thin myself because I bluff so much an observant opponent has to realize I'm full of shit at least some of the time. And fish who aren't that observant normally have a bad concept of what a value calldown hand looks like.
 
RodneyC86

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Raise turn a small bit bigger given texture of flop. About 1.60. If you have been fairly tight up to this point and assuming your opponent isn't a fish like you think he isn't, he will have a made hand on the flop rather than an FD more likely than not after he just flatted your reraise.

I'm inclined to get stacks in here too even if he reraise the turn
If you had made it difficult for him to chase his flush on the flop, you can pretty much feel okay about being sucked out because you gave him bad implied odds.
 
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ScottishMatt

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I did have a massive post written out. I'll keep this second attempt short.

Rodney just because we gave him bad odds doesn't mean we can justify giving the rest of our stack away when we are behind 100% of the time. If he raises turn we are beat. I dunno about your experience but almost no player is going to raise draws at these stakes.

Again I don't understand why you guys feel he has a made hand more often than a FD. He is betting a wet board so he has one or the other, however seeing as I'm likely never raising a draw here, from his perspective his made hands are already behind and have little equity vs my raising range. Now I don't disagree that he can have a made hand here occasionally and that is why I decided to get my second street of value on the river instead of the turn. After I raise flop, check turn and fire river he can call with a one pair weighted range more often than when I raise flop and barrel turn IMO.
 
vinylspiros

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when you dont bet the turn, you lose value by allowing worse hand to improve(for free). ok so the turn suddenly turns ur hand into the second nuts( bad news here if he has a flush). but by not betting it, you get no information as to whenre you are and also by allowing the free river you get the board to pair which now has brought fullhouses into the picture with the king pairing. Your hand has now dropped one more level. you are beat by flushes and boats. Trips are calling the turn here. The turn bet is a MUST here. so many draws. such a wet board.

your not betting the turn in order to get value from worse. your betting it to PROTECT your already vulnerable made hand. and to get some kind of information as whether your beat or not.
 
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Trips aren't calling the turn. Trips are already in on the flop. As is KT. We give him the free river because there is so little in his range to improve upon that didn't get there on the turn, or at least this was my thought process during the hand. You guys seem to disagree though so I may be off there.

And you're wrong. I'm always betting for either A) Value, or B) As a bluff . . . Seeing as we don't fold out anything better the only option is to bet for value. I decided if I was going to extract for one more street the best one to do it on was the river as opposed to the turn. I honestly put his flop calling range as mostly draws with the occasional AK/AA in there.
 
vinylspiros

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Trips aren't calling the turn. Trips are already in on the flop. As is KT. We give him the free river because there is so little in his range to improve upon that didn't get there on the turn, or at least this was my thought process during the hand. You guys seem to disagree though so I may be off there.

And you're wrong. I'm always betting for either A) Value, or B) As a bluff . . . Seeing as we don't fold out anything better the only option is to bet for value. I decided if I was going to extract for one more street the best one to do it on was the river as opposed to the turn. I honestly put his flop calling range as mostly draws with the occasional AK/AA in there.

so u never bet to protect your hand? and get value at the same time?

cause for me in particular(and i dont know if this is wrong or right), i sometimes bet in order to fold out worse hands or make them pay BIG if the board is too dangerous and my hand is too vulnerable. this particular board is pretty wet. thats why i would bet turn.

im not saying my theorie is flawless,but thats probably how id play it.

because i have alot of example where i checked turn and villain got there on river.

If you have it bet it. GET value! on every street. dont give them anything for free. I think u agree that it seems as though u are ahead here on the turn(unless the small possibility that he has made a flush). so get some more money. ur losing value by checking the turn.:icon_chee
 
Deco

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i think i like 3-betting pre rather than flatting. Flop is fine, bet the turn.

Ditto
I raise flop bigger, how to size the turn is villain dependant or whether to 3bet or fold is villain dependant.
 
bezobrazny

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Never fall in love with cards in your hand and maybe you can take some cash.
 
frozensprx

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Hey guys i have a question... I always hear people say a bet is to "protect" your hand from being outdrawn. What happens when that draw comes through? Do you check/fold? In my opinion, I bet when 1. I think I have the best hand, or 2. I think someone else does and want them to fold, regardless of possible draws on board. This "protection" seems illogical because it implies you don't want them to call the bet...and if you want your hand to be protected then are you massively overbetting? Because that is the only logical type of "protecting". In other words, even if a flush comes through and I have a straight...without other relevant information on player tendencies I will value bet my straight and usually fold to a raise, as this is playing optimally against all the hands you are beating and minimizing your losses to the flushes that beat your hand. Just my thoughts.
 
RodneyC86

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I did have a massive post written out. I'll keep this second attempt short.

Rodney just because we gave him bad odds doesn't mean we can justify giving the rest of our stack away when we are behind 100% of the time. If he raises turn we are beat. I dunno about your experience but almost no player is going to raise draws at these stakes.

Again I don't understand why you guys feel he has a made hand more often than a FD. He is betting a wet board so he has one or the other, however seeing as I'm likely never raising a draw here, from his perspective his made hands are already behind and have little equity vs my raising range. Now I don't disagree that he can have a made hand here occasionally and that is why I decided to get my second street of value on the river instead of the turn. After I raise flop, check turn and fire river he can call with a one pair weighted range more often than when I raise flop and barrel turn IMO.

100 percent of the time behind? You gotta consider that it almost never will be 100 percent. A player here could easily raise the turn to rep a flush but holding a good diamond as back up equity if called. If you start folding everything at any sign of a flush you will get owned by more agro players at increasingly higher stakes...but then again, I suppose it's read dependent.
 
Aleksei

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Hey guys i have a question... I always hear people say a bet is to "protect" your hand from being outdrawn. What happens when that draw comes through? Do you check/fold? In my opinion, I bet when 1. I think I have the best hand, or 2. I think someone else does and want them to fold, regardless of possible draws on board. This "protection" seems illogical because it implies you don't want them to call the bet...and if you want your hand to be protected then are you massively overbetting? Because that is the only logical type of "protecting". In other words, even if a flush comes through and I have a straight...without other relevant information on player tendencies I will value bet my straight and usually fold to a raise, as this is playing optimally against all the hands you are beating and minimizing your losses to the flushes that beat your hand. Just my thoughts.
YOu bet to protect your made hand because you want to realize your equity right now -- you don't wanna see the next street and get outdrawn. You bet because RIGHT NOW you have the best hand and when you get your money in, in the long run it is profitable.

So it doesn't really matter to you whether your opponent calls or folds: If he folds you just got villain to fold his own equity and are a few bucks richer, but if he calls he did so with bad odds. You may lose showdown now, but over infinite iterations of that spot you're profiting because his draw will miss more often than hit. Protection betting is a scenario where you can only lose when you're behind a stronger made hand, or a draw with 13 clean outs or more.
 
frozensprx

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Actually any time in poker where I think I have the best hand and put my money into the center I WANT the opponent to call, because that is how I make money. According to your logic...("you don't want to see the next street and get outdrawn") you would always want opponents to fold draws and only continue with made hands against you? Doesn't sound like a very profitable form of poker in my opinion. For example, lets say you have AK on a board of A92 and you infer that your opponent is continuing with a flush draw. According to your logic you wouldn't want the opponent to call your flop bet(or rather you would be indifferent to whether he called or folded) because he might make a better hand than you by the river. That sounds like psychological flaws brought on by your memory placing greater weight on the times you have been sucked out on than the times your opponent called all streets and then folded when he missed his draw, leaving you with that extra profit. When I have a good hand I VALUE bet (meaning I WANT the opponent to call with weaker aces or flush/straight draws) but I rarely bet with a strong hand hoping the opponent folds so my hand is "protected". Obviously I can think of a few small exceptions like maybe in a huge tournament where I flop a strong hand but i'm against multiple opponents and I do a massive overbet on the flop, hoping they will fold. Such big overbets would be classified as a semi-bluff because the intention of the bet is to get opponents to fold. Your statement "you don't care whether the opponent calls or folds" also is largely misguided because I always want my value bets to be called so I make that profit and I always want my bluffs to get folds so I can take down the existing pot. Anyways, your logic ignores the infinitely valuable concept of tailoring bet sizes to achieve different things. If you start making overbets everytime you think your opponent is drawing they will likely fold and you will only get played back at by the nuts, which will lose you a great deal of money in the long term. I think the poker community would be better-served by ditching the term "protecting" a hand and instead embrace the concept of betting for value against weaker hands.
 
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About how often would you guys think he has the flush here?
 
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100 percent of the time behind? You gotta consider that it almost never will be 100 percent. A player here could easily raise the turn to rep a flush but holding a good diamond as back up equity if called. If you start folding everything at any sign of a flush you will get owned by more agro players at increasingly higher stakes...but then again, I suppose it's read dependent.

This is 10NL. How much experience do you have of people X/R semibluffing at the micros? I understand that against aggro players we can have the best hand more often, however the standard of play at these limits rarely means we do. I don't think that centralizing a 10NL strategy around what more aggressive players at higher stakes are going to do vs us is the best way to approach this. If I believed villain was capable/aggressive enough to make a play at me here then I would be happy to GII. However I seriously doubted villain was capable enough, and that suspicion proved true when he turned over AdQd on the river. You can see how passive he played it, and almost all of the microstakes population play it the same because they aren't aggressive enough to play it any other way. Honestly I'm surprised by most of the advice ITT suggesting that villain will show up with weak hands here and is likely to bluff raise us on this turn and so on.

I'm not claiming he has the nuts here every time or anything. And he doesn't even need a flush here. However judging by the passivity that he played his hand with, I struggle to comprehend that he could get so aggressive as to X/R semi-bluff us with a weak one pair.
 
Aces2w1n

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Sets are calling the turn... Theres so much value out there already and you often have the nuts if you improve the river. And you'll be able to go all-in on the river and get called with flushes/straights.


Your not betting the turn so the worse hands don't fold... Well if they don't call the turn they definetly won't call the river imo. Unless ofc they get a miracle rivercard and then have you beat, which makes your check on the turn look even uglier.

But one thing stands out, If your opponent calls you on the river, why would he just flat call you??? If he has the nuts and he's just flat that's a weak play.... Perhaps he has the flush and is scared of the boat... And hoping to make you feel comfortable with your straight to extract value.
 
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vinylspiros

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Actually any time in poker where I think I have the best hand and put my money into the center I WANT the opponent to call, because that is how I make money. According to your logic...("you don't want to see the next street and get outdrawn") you would always want opponents to fold draws and only continue with made hands against you? Doesn't sound like a very profitable form of poker in my opinion.
1st of all. where did u see me say always? Only in certain very very wet boards when your made hand is extremely vulnerable to be outdrawn. You want to make it very expensive for villain to see another street(and at the same time maximise your value)(you dont wanna scare him off a hand but u dont wanna make him get there cheap)
For example, lets say you have AK on a board of A92 and you infer that your opponent is continuing with a flush draw. According to your logic you wouldn't want the opponent to call your flop bet(or rather you would be indifferent to whether he called or folded) because he might make a better hand than you by the river. That sounds like psychological flaws brought on by your memory placing greater weight on the times you have been sucked out on than the times your opponent called all streets and then folded when he missed his draw, leaving you with that extra profit.
This example is totally irrelevant to the hand in play here and also not a very very wet board(except for the flush draw.)again ur argument is irrelevant. we dont protect here like we do on superwet boards. we just try to get enough value without scarring anyone off.As far as psychological flaws are concerned, i think that your getting a bit carried away here. keep it objective.
When I have a good hand I VALUE bet (meaning I WANT the opponent to call with weaker aces or flush/straight draws) but I rarely bet with a strong hand hoping the opponent folds so my hand is "protected". Obviously I can think of a few small exceptions like maybe in a huge tournament where I flop a strong hand but i'm against multiple opponents and I do a massive overbet on the flop, hoping they will fold. Such big overbets would be classified as a semi-bluff because the intention of the bet is to get opponents to fold. Your statement "you don't care whether the opponent calls or folds" also is largely misguided because I always want my value bets to be called so I make that profit and I always want my bluffs to get folds so I can take down the existing pot. Anyways, your logic ignores the infinitely valuable concept of tailoring bet sizes to achieve different things. If you start making overbets everytime you think your opponent is drawing they will likely fold and you will only get played back at by the nuts, which will lose you a great deal of money in the long term. I think the poker community would be better-served by ditching the term "protecting" a hand and instead embrace the concept of betting for value against weaker hands.

in general, its pretty obvious that you dont understand where protection bets work best. There is a difference between value betting and value/protection betting.
The first(vallue betting),which u are describing is the standard play.
The value/protection bet is used when the board is very ,very wet and you dont wanna lose the hand on a later street. And its usually used when the pot is already inflated due to preflop action or what not.

Learn to seperate between the two.

Your post is implying that someone said that its good to scare villain off of worst hands, when in reality, if you look closer ,you will see that it is used only in very particular board textures. ;)
 
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