$10 NLHE 6-max: Flop the nuts line check

JCgrind

JCgrind

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vil stats 15/12/2.5 125 hands
vil is tight but very straight forward. typical "valuebet only" type reg

i feel like my play on this hand is kinda retarded. advice welcome for all streets. fwiw im always calling a <3BB open pre with suited paint, esp when i feel like my opponent is just gunna play his hand face up

pokerstars Hand #83375137324: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10 USD) - 2012/07/15 17:11:29 ET
Table 'Kiangsu IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: zaharka ($13.65 in chips)
Seat 2: aprilee ($11.16 in chips)
Seat 4: mycobact ($3.57 in chips)
Seat 5: jchoop ($21.75 in chips)
Seat 6: SamakiHunter ($13.05 in chips)
jchoop: posts small blind $0.05
SamakiHunter: posts big blind $0.10

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jchoop [Td Qd]
zaharka: folds
Zemixx111 leaves the table
aprilee: raises $0.17 to $0.27
mycobact: folds
jchoop: calls $0.22
SamakiHunter: folds

*** FLOP *** [9s Kh Jc]
jchoop: checks
aprilee: bets $0.40
jchoop: raises $1.10 to $1.50
aprilee: calls $1.10 looking to get it in obv but he flats

*** TURN *** [9s Kh Jc] [Ks]
jchoop: checks
aprilee: checks

find this spot awkward because if i bet and he raises im in a pickle, so i check

*** RIVER *** [9s Kh Jc Ks] [5s]
jchoop: checks
aprilee: bets $2
jchoop: raises $2 to $4


min raise here kinda contradicts my thinking OTT. not sure wtf im doing if he ships it
 
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Poker_play

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Lol wtf @ line?

Call pre's not standard but fine imo

Flop raise good.

After that you're all over the place.

I don't like the reasoning on turn check--you seem like you don't agree w it either. Him possibly raising river is a worse spot!

I Bet turn lookin to get it in on river.

If he 3bets turn, soulread time.
 
JCgrind

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what are your thoughts on me donkbetting the flop?
i feel like it wouldve made life a ton easier considering he calls the flop c/r.

so you think bet turn and hope to god he only flats? then what about river?

Also heres why i go ahead and raise river. BD flush makes it. i understand that it makes totally no sense for me to have it, but imo at 10NL on this board, any 3b river shove is always and only the nuts. Im 99% sure he wont shove a bare king here anymore because of this, therefore can raise my straight, get called by worse and happily fold to a jam (cos its nearly certainly a boat+). bare king doesnt shove on me anymore, as opposed to OTT where he can be raising trips or boats and im left guessing
 
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Poker_play

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Not a fan of donkbetting in general. Clearly less value than c/r if he just calls the donkbet. I guess there's a chance he fires flop after your donkbet, making things easier..but def non standard.
I definitely bet turn. You're still well ahead of range-of course concerned about kj, jj, 9s, but a valuebet is still +EV (ak, kq, aa, qq, aj can all call a turn bet. If he calls turn, reevaluate..I probably valuebet river still, but tougher. If he 3bets turn I'm not sure..need more info on villain, might fold.
 
WVHillbilly

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Calling from the SB is throwing $$ away. Fold pre ainec.
 
JCgrind

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Not a fan of donkbetting in general. Clearly less value than c/r if he just calls the donkbet. I guess there's a chance he fires flop after your donkbet, making things easier..but def non standard.
I definitely bet turn. You're still well ahead of range-of course concerned about kj, jj, 9s, but a valuebet is still +EV (ak, kq, aa, qq, aj can all call a turn bet. If he calls turn, reevaluate..I probably valuebet river still, but tougher. If he 3bets turn I'm not sure..need more info on villain, might fold.

okay, sounds like a solid plan from now on. cheers

EDIT: fwiw donkbetting gets a lot of raises, and check/raises at micros are generally considered super strong and therefore arguably lose you value as worse almost always folds (excluding c/r'ing fishtards). clearly i seem to favour donking in this spot.... might just be because i know how the hand played out, iono. writing shit out like this is certainly helping me think things through better though

Calling from the SB is throwing $$ away. Fold pre ainec.

ainec? ye i know call isnt standard, but i think i can outplay most of these 10nl guys post, esp this one. (losing from the SB at 3BB/100, 6k sample)
 
WVHillbilly

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and it's not even close.

Listen, I think you likely play very well but you've obviously been running white hot for a while now. When things turn around, it will be these type of plays that cost you a TON of cash before you plug the leak. This is a fold pre against just about any villain. Save your outplaying for when you're IP.
 
JCgrind

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and it's not even close.

Listen, I think you likely play very well but you've obviously been running white hot for a while now. When things turn around, it will be these type of plays that cost you a TON of cash before you plug the leak. This is a fold pre against just about any villain. Save your outplaying for when you're IP.

wish i ran good lol, im ~4k below EV. i know i prob seem like the most arrogant guy out saying stuff like "i think i can outplay pre vs most", but one and done guys like this are pretty good candidates for calling light pre getting a little fancy wouldnt you say?

id say you know more than me about calling opens, and i really appreciate the input, so can i ask;
usually my calling range ITB's vs a guys this tight opening in MP would be something like

call: ATs+ KQs, AQo+, 77-QQ
3b: polarised range of AA, KK, bluffs

does that seem reasonable?
 
WVHillbilly

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You should be 3betting a lot more than just KK+. I'd say at least QQ+/AK for value and a couple of "light" hands. I like KQ/KJo. That's still less than 5% 3bet. JJ can be 3bet for value depending on villain as well.

I would like to point out that the range you posted for calling does not include QTs?
 
JCgrind

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You should be 3betting a lot more than just KK+. I'd say at least QQ+/AK for value and a couple of "light" hands. I like KQ/KJo. That's still less than 5% 3bet. JJ can be 3bet for value depending on villain as well.

I would like to point out that the range you posted for calling does not include QTs?

Why would i want to 3b lighter than KK vs MP open? 12% pfr'ers opening range from MP is super tight anyway, his continuing range is obv even tighter.

if i 3b an MP open from the BB, i think its fair to say hes calling (TT), JJ, QQ, AKs/o (4bing KK+AA)
lets say for arguments sake i wanna 3b AK. a standard continuing range of a player of this type at micros is JJ, QQ, AK maybe TT and AQs, which gives me 47% equity against his range AND im OOP?
by flatting these hands im keep his whole opening range in, which i crush.

I think maybe you misread my post, i am 3bing much lighter than this from the blinds vs opens from steal positions- definitely including AK/QQ for value.

I know QTs wasnt in the calling range i posted, but this is a guy who fires one barrel tops if he missed, so itll be easier than usual to spot if hes ahead of me, and easier to take away the pot post
 
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Poker_play

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On second thought..you know nl10 better then I do..do big hands 4bet that flop after you showed strength? I think most do... that heavily discounts the chances that you're against a boat on turn imo. mean kj definitely shouldn't be comfortable flatting/slowplaying your flop c/r..and any other flopped set should be trying to get it in right?

On that note def valuebet turn and river, and I don't think you fold turn if he raises.

Yeh I don't know if there's a way to plug in the 'edge' variable into ev...cause without it, def fold pre.
 
JCgrind

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On second thought..you know nl10 better then I do..do big hands 4bet that flop after you showed strength? I think most do... that heavily discounts the chances that you're against a boat on turn imo. mean kj definitely shouldn't be comfortable flatting/slowplaying your flop c/r..and any other flopped set should be trying to get it in right?

On that note def valuebet turn and river, and I don't think you fold turn if he raises.

This is a hard one to answer. also youve said 3b a few times in relation to post and i think youre getting it muddled.
By 4b, are you meaning he bets flop, i raise, he reraises? cos thats 3b :)

Good question though, but ye very vil dependent. there are lots of players that will flat a set/KJ once i r/r them because they loooooove slowplaying and want to keep me in, even though a Q or a T popping up will value**** those hands, so its not really clear :\ haha sorry i know that wasnt the answer you were looking for

Yeh I don't know if there's a way to plug in the 'edge' variable into ev...cause without it, def fold pre.

agree
 
JDAWG5

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Q10 is a crap hand. Especially in the SB.

I'm folding this pre all day.
 
JCgrind

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Q10 is a crap hand. Especially in the SB.

I'm folding this pre all day.

heard the arguments for and against, vs someone at higher stakes/who knows how to play other than value bet, for sure, but i think its pretty ~EV vs this vil, esp when it widens my range and helps me get paid in other spots. -1.79BB/100 out of the SB, 7k hands
 
JDAWG5

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heard the arguments for and against, vs someone at higher stakes/who knows how to play other than value bet, for sure, but i think its pretty ~EV vs this vil, esp when it widens my range and helps me get paid in other spots. -1.79BB/100 out of the SB, 7k hands

Yea, I should have said that Q10 is a hand that I would never play from the sb, simply because I am not good enough to play it profitably.

But if you are good enough, then go right ahead.
 
acky100

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Maybe it was fine in this spot, maybe not, having the impression you can just obviously outplay people out of position post flop is the real leak though, having this kind of ego isn't going to help when you move up stakes. Even if you can, QT is just a hand that does not fair well in our cold calling range here imo. Think of what his range of hands is from EP/MP? 22+ , ATs+, KTs+ KQo, AJo+ give or take is a pretty standard range i'd say. A good bunch of these combo's are dominating you whilst you dominate pretty much none. This is basically how we take money off fish, we play with dominating ranges, calling QT when we know our opponents range kinda puts us below fish in the food chain?
 
JCgrind

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Maybe it was fine in this spot, maybe not, having the impression you can just obviously outplay people out of position post flop is the real leak though, having this kind of ego isn't going to help when you move up stakes. Even if you can, QT is just a hand that does not fair well in our cold calling range here imo. Think of what his range of hands is from EP/MP? 22+ , ATs+, KTs+ KQo, AJo+ give or take is a pretty standard range i'd say. A good bunch of these combo's are dominating you whilst you dominate pretty much none. This is basically how we take money off fish, we play with dominating ranges, calling QT when we know our opponents range kinda puts us below fish in the food chain?

Sigh, I wouldn't do this against everyone. Doing it to one guy I have a big HH with, cos he's especially tight putting money in post and plays very face up.
Know I'm totally crushed- hence why in comments above I listed what my usual calling range vs MP in the blinds would be? A bunch of starting hands where I'm ahead of his (very likely accurately described by you) opening range.
 
c9h13no3

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Lol @ calling to outplay people and then butchering the hand on the turn & river.

Just fold/3-bet pre based on stats.
 
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swingro

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I only play this hand from SB against limpers to isolate. I hate calling because i would probabely fold pre. And against a villain like this you need the nuts to play postflop because your hand is in the best case a dominated one. The only type of hand that i would call with is the pocket pair to setmine..
 
JCgrind

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I only play this hand from SB against limpers to isolate. I hate calling because i would probabely fold pre. And against a villain like this you need the nuts to play postflop because your hand is in the best case a dominated one. The only type of hand that i would call with is the pocket pair to setmine..

what about QQ JJ TT, AK AQ? youre far better off calling these than 3bing here...
 
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swingro

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what about QQ JJ TT, AK AQ? youre far better off calling these than 3bing here...
I would not put all these hands together here. JJ, TT i will treat here like normal PP so i call. With AK, QQ i will 3-bet. Sometimes even with AQ if i know the villan well enough.
 
JCgrind

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I would not put all these hands together here. JJ, TT i will treat here like normal PP so i call. With AK, QQ i will 3-bet. Sometimes even with AQ if i know the villan well enough.

why not?

i did know this villain well enough, i believe (could be wrong) i posted his stats, 12% overall PFR- so much less from MP and a high fold to 3b.

Why are you 3bing AK, QQ? what do you do if he 4bs? fold? cos you cant call; his 4b/4bshove range is AA and KK + some air. QQ may have merit as a value 3b, because he is likely calling JJ and TT, (maybe AK- microregs have different approaches to AK, might flat, might shove), but youre much better off flatting and getting value from his entire opening range imo. AQ is just straight up a bad 3b vs him. youre effectively turning your hand into a bluff. the range of hands he calls 3bs with crushes you, so you benefit much more from flatting and keeping his worse AX, QX hands in
 
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baudib1

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AK/QQ are ahead of everyone's range unless they are 12/2.

Flatting pre from the SB HU is bad. If he has a high f3b then 3-betting is fine especially since we have blockers for his call 3-bet range.

Bet the turn/bet the river.
 
JCgrind

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AK/QQ are ahead of everyone's range unless they are 12/2.

Flatting pre from the SB HU is bad. If he has a high f3b then 3-betting is fine especially since we have blockers for his call 3-bet range.

Bet the turn/bet the river.

They ahead of his opening range yes, but they arent ahead of his continuing range at all?
 
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