$10 NLHE 6-max: Don't really like my line, Help. TT monotone low board

bgomez89

bgomez89

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Full Tilt - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $10.15
CO: $10.15
BTN: $19.07
Hero (SB): $10.00
BB: $11.44

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has T:spade: T:club:

fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.25, fold

Flop: ($0.70, 2 players) 9:diamond: 4:diamond: 3:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.40, Hero raises to $2.10, BTN calls $1.70

Turn: ($4.90, 2 players) Q:spade:
Hero bets $7.60 and is all-in

over 100 hands villain is a 24/20/43, fold to 3bet is 100% out of 6 hands. He recently caught me in a bluff where I floated the flop and tried to rep a flush when it hit and he called me with TT(it was an over on that board). I do feel that villain will call my flop raise with Overs+FD, pairs+Fd

My turn bet i felt was spew because im not sure those worse hands call but i saw how big the pot was and the size of my stack and felt if I did a 3/4pot bet i'd be committed even if a 4th diamond came on the river

Halp
 
bgomez89

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oh cmon not that hard
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Bet fold the turn if he's reasonably passive, check/shove if he's aggro and think he'll semi-bluff that turn
 
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baudib1

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3-bet pre when he's likely to give up a lot of hands that have ~30%-50% equity. C-R flop is sorta awful because if he has a big diamond he's not going to give up that equity on the flop. C-R to $1.50 would accomplish the same thing and give you room to fold on bad turns/rivers.

B/F the turn for 1/2-2/3 pot.
 
bgomez89

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Why 3 bet when his fold to 3 bet is so high
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Yeah no need for 3-betting pre, it's just turning TT into a bluff then and you can get more value by calling
 
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baudib1

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Yeah no need for 3-betting pre, it's just turning TT into a bluff then and you can get more value by calling

Cuz we want to play post and stack off on a 9-high monotone board?
 
bgomez89

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We have blockers for a lot of his hands that can make straights so his range has less equity IMO. But like complex said 3 betting almost would turn TT into a bluff.
 
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baudib1

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We have blockers for a lot of his hands that can make straights so his range has less equity IMO. But like complex said 3 betting almost would turn TT into a bluff.

Turn: ($4.90, 2 players) Q♠
Hero bets $7.60 and is all-in
 
bgomez89

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I thought we were talking about preflop
 
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baudib1

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I don't know why all these posts are disappearing but I have more to add.

1. 3-bet TT pre from the SB for value because we are way ahead of BTN's opening range and because he will fold a ton of hands that have good equity against us. If he folds KJo or QJ or even A9s it's good for us because our hand will be difficult to play postflop. It will be rare that we win a huge pot postflop even if we flop a set because BTN rarely has a good enough hand to stack.

2. We don't want BB to come along.

3. If we don't put like hands like TT in our 3-bet range especially from the blinds then smart regs will figure out they can 4-bet bluff with KQ or 88 or something cuz our range is strictly polarized QQ+/AK and like 98s/A2s in the blinds -- i.e. we have almost no real value hands. It's going to be a hella easier for him to play his overcards and top pairs than for us to play on a J44 flop or something and when we flat we get bluffed off the best hand a ton (i.e. he double barrels 98s on an A76 flop).

4. Why is it worse to turn our hand into a bluff, which we're not, preflop for like $1.25 instead of over-bet shoving a dangerous board with 3 flush, which we have none of, and an overcard?

5. If we want to flat from the SB it's better to show up with AA or something like AJs that can either flop a good pair or continue on a lot of boards and pick up backdoor equity we can utilize when villain shows weakness.
 
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bgomez89

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#4 you're right i did turn TT into a bluff hence why I posted this hand here because i didnt like it.

By you're thinking, why not just 3 bet 88+? By 3 betting TT into a guy with a high fold to 3bet what do we expect to get called by?
 
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baudib1

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Once again, when he folds his 45% equity, which he'll do a ton, that is a good result for us.

Depends on villain, but we profit even if we check-fold every flop that doesn't contain a set based on his stats. 22-77 we 3-bet or fold, probably 3-bet against this guy and fold to people who call more.

Think about your 3-bet range in the SB and typical 3-bet ranges in 6-max games and you'll realize how retarded these ranges are.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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I don't know why all these posts are disappearing but I have more to add.

1. 3-bet TT pre from the SB as a bluff because we are way ahead of BTN's opening range and because he will fold a ton of hands that have good equity against us. If he folds KJo or QJ or even A9s it's good for us because our hand will be difficult to play postflop. It will be rare that we win a huge pot postflop even if we flop a set because BTN rarely has a good enough hand to stack.

2. We do want BB to come along.

3. If we don't put like hands like TT in our 3-bet range especially from the blinds then smart regs will never figure out they can 4-bet bluff with KQ or 88 or something cuz our range is strictly polarized QQ+/AK and like 98s/A2s in the blinds -- i.e. we have almost no real value hands. It's going to be a hella easier for him to play his overcards and top pairs than for us to play on a J44 flop or something and when we flat we get bluffed off the best hand a ton (i.e. he double barrels 98s on an A76 flop).

4. Why is it worse to turn our hand into a bluff, which we are, preflop for like $1.25 instead of over-bet shoving a dangerous board with 3 flush, which we have none of, and an overcard?

5. If we want to flat from the SB it's horrible to show up with AA

FYP!

1. Betting for value means you expect worse hands to call (or more elaborate, you beat most of the range that calls you). If you're 3-betting all you're doing is pushing out those worse hands and get called by hands that are either flipping or crush us.

2. Why don't you want someone else coming along? Our implied odds for hitting a set have just increased exponentially, people are less likely to bluff a multi-way pot so our showdown value increases as well. And when it looks like both missed our bluff gets more respect.

3. Don't know if you noticed but this is 10nl not 1knl. Stop having MUBS :)

4. It's worse because it's less profitable. Simple. You thinking every time the flop comes 9 high button will have a set or higher overpair is another symptom of MUBS. He will fold to a c/r 90% of the time, more profit for us with the added cbet for roughly the same price.

5. lol @ slowplaying AA out of position. Another point here is you do want a polarized range, if you 3-bet 22-JJ you can't 3-bet A5s, T9s etc. and you lose the profits from those hands because now you have to fold them (or the 3-bet % is going to be way too high)
 
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baudib1

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1. You're never getting hands that crush us to call, they will 4-bet. This guy is reasonably TAG so he's not opening a ton of total trash on the button, very likely he has hands that will always have equity against us. There's a great deal of value in taking down a small pot here instead of trying to navigate even favorable flops. If you need proof of this, look at OP.

2. WTF at playing TT for set value. WTF at playing anything for set value vs. the BTN. If you're cold-calling with 22 here for set value, you are setting money on fire.

3. wat. balancing our ranges in all spots and at all stakes is a good thing.

4. really if you think we are bluffing when we raise a BTN with TT then WTF. and auto-stacking underpairs on monotone boards isn't going to be profitable in the long run, trust me.


5. We should probably flat AA in the SB vs. BTN almost all the time.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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1. You're never getting hands that crush us to call, they will 4-bet. This guy is reasonably TAG so he's not opening a ton of total trash on the button, very likely he has hands that will always have equity against us. There's a great deal of value in taking down a small pot here instead of trying to navigate even favorable flops. If you need proof of this, look at OP.

2. WTF at playing TT for set value. WTF at playing anything for set value vs. the BTN. If you're cold-calling with 22 here for set value, you are setting money on fire.

3. wat. balancing our ranges in all spots and at all stakes is a good thing.

4. really if you think we are bluffing when we raise a BTN with TT then WTF. and auto-stacking underpairs on monotone boards isn't going to be profitable in the long run, trust me.


5. We should probably flat AA in the SB vs. BTN almost all the time.

Wow, you are stubborn man. I don't think you understood my points.

1. Why do you know he will 4-bet JJ+? Have you talked to him and he told you that's what he does? Plenty of people flat 3-bets with premium hands fwiw, and it can be correct vs a wide 3-bet range.

You like to talk about balancing, what about if you never call 3-bet with premium hands villains will know you don't have them? This is just turning your argument against you, but the fact is you should never try to balance anything in the micros, you're not playing durrr. And if you are playing someone that's so good you need to balance, change the freaking table

2. I didn't say I was playing it for set value, but set value is a big part of playing any pocket pair, so I was saying the implied odds of a set just increase exponentially if BB calls too.

3. See #1.

4. Who said anything about auto-stacking ? You aren't bluffing by definition when you 3-bet but you set yourself up versus a range that you're flipping with at best and you're out of position.

Would you rather be up against a range that you flip with OOP in a bigger pot with lower SPR or up against a range that you crush at 68% with a higher SPR ?

To be value raising you have to be called by worse, tell me what worse hands from this guy do you think call your 3-bet? MAYBE 88 99 and that's it?

5. What's your win-rate with AA ?
 
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baudib1

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4. To be value raising you have to be called by worse, tell me what worse hands from this guy do you think call your 3-bet? MAYBE 88 99 and that's it?

5. What's your win-rate with AA ?

I'll just ignore the rest of this because we're just talking past one another at this point.

since we're at micros in this hand let's get real. in a vacuum do you seriously believe that people aren't calling you with QJs or 93s or 22 when you 3-bet them? Because if you think that people only continue with JJ+? We should be 3-betting with ATC like 100% of the time to print money.

For the fourth time, since this guy folds so much we should 3-bet him a ton and that includes with VALUE hands, especially ones that will be difficult to play when we flat. Do you understand that if he continues with a range of AQ+/all pocket pairs and folds stuff like QJ/AJ/KQ we show enormous profit and have an easier time playing against his continuing range?

When we have AA we never want villain to fold, we don't mind the BB coming along and we'd really really welcome a squeeze; and AA is not really a difficult hand to play OOP.

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/move-beyond-hand-chart-3-bets-133959/

3-bet hands that are ahead of your opponent's range for value

As far as position goes, be more inclined to 3-bet when you are out of position. The smaller the stack to pot ratio becomes, the less important position becomes. This is because one of the main advantages of position is controlling the pot size. But with a 3-bet pot, pot control usually goes out the window. Thus, you should be very rarely calling raises from the small blind, and be more inclined to call with position on the button since you can then play more streets with position.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Reading an article =/= understanding / applying it correctly. That's all I'm going to say anymore on this matter, explained my thoughts already.

You could still tell me your WR with AA so I can compare our strategies with it at the same level :)
 
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baudib1

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My winrate with AA is higher when I reraise against a strong range than when I get weak ranges to fold.

Note the difference between AA and TT is that even weak ranges can play profitably against us IP.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Yet you still won't say it...come on, say it. We can then compare my win-rate with raising it from the blinds instead of your style
 
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baudib1

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I'm at work right now and my database is completed frakked up anyway -- I lost everything from 2009-2010.
 
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