$10 NLHE 6-max: Deep stacked with 2 pairs facing check-shove on turn

6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
10NL 6-max zoom on pokerstars. Villain is unknown.

SB has $13.75
Villain (BB) has $19.66
UTG has $11.41
Hero (MP) has $34.27
CO has $37.70
BTN has $10.00

Hero is dealt Th 9h
SB posts $0.05
Villain (BB) posts $0.10
UTG folds
Hero (MP) raises to $0.30
CO calls $0.30
BTN folds
SB folds
Villain raises to $1.25
Hero calls $0.95
CO calls $0.95

$3.63 in pot (3 players)
Flop shows Kh Tc 8d

Villain bets $1.80
Hero calls $1.80
CO calls $1.80

$8.79 in pot (3 players)
Turn shows 9d

Villain checks
Hero bets $5.50
CO folds
Villain raises to $16.61 (ALL-IN)
Hero ???

What should the hero do here? Hero has 2 pairs and is facing a check-shove on the turn by a deep-stacked villain.
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
Smells like AA or maybe AJdd. I'd call this off. He has KK here sometimes but that's alright, he'll have other things often enough.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Uhhh, why are we calling preflop?
 
Trabendo_daze

Trabendo_daze

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Total posts
416
Awards
1
Chips
0
I really don't think the call preflop is too horrible with a player behind that will probably flat-call. If we assume that CO will call we are putting .95 in to win 3.75 and we just need to win this pot 25.33% of the time in position. That really can't be too bad right?
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Fold to 3 bet pre, fold flop. If you are calling pre because of implied odds you want to be calling the flop with big draws, not middle pair. As played probably call shove and pray he has AK, we really shouldn't be in this spot.
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
Uhhh, why are we calling preflop?

Because high suited connectors (T9s) play very well with deep-stacks (200bb+) in multiway pots (I knew the CO would call too), especially when we have position over the PFR.

The flop call was a close one, but I made it for a few reasons:
1) I typically don't like folding second pair to a Cbet, because it makes me very exploitable
2) The bet sizing was quite small, so I was getting good pot odds + implied odds
3) I had the chance to "spike" 2 pairs or trips and it won't be very obvious
4) I had backdoor straight and flush draws
5) Being in position with a deep stack could allow me to take the pot down on future streets

Results:
Hero calls $11.11
River shows 7c
Villain shows Ad Qc (Ace high)
Hero wins pot $40.92

BOOM Hand Replayer
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Stack depth isn't as important as stack to pot ratio. The 3-bet wrecks that.

I kinda want to say "duh" but apparently it's not a duh moment...
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
Even after the 3bet and the multiway pot, I've got a 10 SPR against the CO and a 5 SPR against the Villain (BB). Surely that's enough for T9s.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
1. Fold to 3bet because we have CO to worry about. We flat and CO decides to raise then what??? CO calls and we still OOP. Calling pre 3bets with PP and SC is a leak.

2. You need to learn to classify your hand better, sure we pickup 2pairs but it's a multiway board and we are often beat.

3. We get the option to take a free card.... Well take advantage! why lose the advantage by betting, ur now betting being predictable and walked into a trap.

4. checking turn is important because it's pot control and now on the river we can gain value from Kx type hands... By betting we are getting rid of his weak hands and he's waking up with monsters like this.

Summary Learn to classify your hand... You have showdown value but that's it.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
A SPR of 5 is tiny. 1 pair territory. You wouldn't set mine with 5:1 implied odds, and T9s is even harder to make a big hand with.

The CO is just along for the ride. If he wakes up, he has a big hand.

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/concepts/spr/

SPR is different to implied odds. In terms of implied odds, I was calling a further $0.95 with the opportunity to make a profit of $53.28 (if I stacked them both), so 56:1 implied odds, which is more than enough to set-mine and play suited connectors.

Of course, the real implied odds wouldn't be 56:1, since I can't expect to stack them both every time I make the hand, but the potential for some good implied odds that justify playing a hand like T9s was there imo. There is the argument that I had some reverse implied odds (if someone else hand a hand like Axhh), but that's a different argument altogether.

And I'm not sure the SPR works that way in multiway pots. Sure, 0-6 is a low SPR and 7-16 is a medium SPR in a heads up pot, but in MW pots when I have a 10 SPR against one player and a 5 SPR against another player, wouldn't it make more sense to add them together and say I have a 15 SPR (almost a high SPR)?
 
6

6bet me

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Total posts
835
Chips
0
1. Fold to 3bet because we have CO to worry about. We flat and CO decides to raise then what??? CO calls and we still OOP. Calling pre 3bets with PP and SC is a leak.

2. You need to learn to classify your hand better, sure we pickup 2pairs but it's a multiway board and we are often beat.

3. We get the option to take a free card.... Well take advantage! why lose the advantage by betting, ur now betting being predictable and walked into a trap.

4. checking turn is important because it's pot control and now on the river we can gain value from Kx type hands... By betting we are getting rid of his weak hands and he's waking up with monsters like this.

Summary Learn to classify your hand... You have showdown value but that's it.

1. I really do not expect CO to 4bet after he flat-called my 2bet. I'm not at all concerned about this because it happens so rarely. I expect him to fold about 30% of the time and call the 3bet the other 70% of the time (knowing that he's closing the action with good pot odds). And I have position over the PFR (which is the important thing), plus I know that the CO most likely has some kind of drawing hands, based upon his preflop actions (most likely low to medium pocket pairs or suited connectors, perhaps a few hands like KQo, KJo, AJo and ATo). My range is a lot less defined than the CO, so that's another benefit (since there is a much wider range of hands that would raise preflop and flat a 3bet, vs hands that would flat a 2bet and then flat a 3bet).

2. That's the thing though... how often are we really beat here? I see so many draws out there (hands like AJ and KJ chasing an OESD, hands like AQ and KQ chasing a gutshot, as well as 2 diamond hands chasing a flush) and I really need to protect myself against these draws, but I don't see many hands that beat me that would take this line. If the CO had a set, I would've expected him to raise the flop, and if the villain (BB) has a set, I would've expected him to barrel the turn more often than not (sure, he will have a set sometimes, but I made the decision to call his check-shove and take my chances).

3. The free card will almost always be bad for me. Is there a single river card that does me some good? Either it pairs the board and I only get action from better boats, or it fills up a bunch of straight draws (as it did in this case, causing 4 to a straight), or it counterfeits me in some way. I didn't want to lose value from draws and AA/AK/KQ/QQ hands that could potentially call my $5.50 turn bet. If it's a trap, then so be it, but I can't allow myself to get outdrawn or lose action on the river... or even worse, have a river card that allows someone with a worse hand to bluff me!

4. Do we really expect a hand like KJ to fold to a turn bet? They would have top pair + an OESD. Even KQ might decide to be sticky with top pair + a gutshot. Why lose value from these hands? And why check and allow a hand like AK or AA to counterfeit me on the river?

I have a hand with showdown value on a very wet board with a lot of draws out there. I have to worry about a lot of river cards and for that reason, I made a turn value bet for protection.
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Ok, so even if you decide this is a profitable spot to flat pre because of implied odds, why are you calling the flop bet? This is the exact opposite hand that we were trying to make when calling pre but you decide to continue anyway. With middle pair all we can improve to is two pair or trips and look what mess that gets us in.

I see above you see you said you are afraid of being exploited when you fold second pair. I can tell you now there is no one at 10NL that could exploit this. Also, this is not a normal pot, this is a multiway 3 bet pot...
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Stack depth isn't as important as stack to pot ratio. The 3-bet wrecks that.

I kinda want to say "duh" but apparently it's not a duh moment...

Listen to this, its actually a decent sized leak that I have discovered lately. SPR probably makes it hard for us to fold when we make top pair so there is some reverse implied odds to be had here too. Also with the SPR so small, if you flop a draw you are probably putting in atleast 35bbs to see one card and potentially your whole stack if there is a lot of action.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
2. I can safely assume against 2 opponents we are crushed on turn

At very best we get called n we get rivered lol its just poker
 
Top