$10 NLHE 6-max: Deep in a 4Bet Pot

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rhombus

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No read on villain as 1st hand
Is this standard play or is there any other way to play it especially 190BB Deep

I have the nut flush card, so that discounts most flush draws. Put them on AA, KK with Kh, QQ with Qh possibly TT JJ or split with AK

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10.05 (100.5 bb)
BB: $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $28.17 (281.7 bb)
MP: $57.70 (577 bb)
CO: $10.82 (108.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $19.10 (191 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A
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K
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UTG calls $0.10, MP raises to $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, MP raises to $2.60, CO folds, Hero calls $1.35

Flop: ($5.70) 3
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T
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2
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(2 players)
MP bets $1.63, Hero calls $1.63

Turn: ($8.96) 6
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(2 players)
MP bets $3.42, Hero calls $3.42

River: ($15.80) A
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(2 players)
MP bets $6.03, Hero ????
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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You can't fold it's not an option.
 
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pyrotheassassin

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I'd call here for nothing more than info on how Villian plays, since the river is helpful and jumps you ahead of most of that range. PokerStove returned 66% equity vs. the range you assigned.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Prefer a 5-bet/fold preflop if you have any reads he's decently aggro pre. You have a ton of leverage, he can't 6-bet you wide unless he's crazy, and he pretty much has to fold QQ/AK which are a significant part of his 4-betting range. AKs fine to call IP. I also discount a lot of KK/AA from his range when UTG limps and he iso's for 2.5x from MP lol.

As played, hand is completely fine as long as you did not fold the river. Just call.
 
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seventhsense

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Prefer a 5-bet/fold preflop if you have any reads he's decently aggro pre.

I completely disagree. He already stated no reads. By 5 betting we fold out all his bluffs that we can outplay IP post flop. We get called by/shoved on by QQ+ and maybe AK which we obv aren't doing great against.

Flatting the 4 bet is fine. I think the line you took post-flop is fine. I doubt we get overpairs to fold out by raising either the flop or turn so calling seems standard. Then the river is definitely a call.
 
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rhombus

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Prefer a 5-bet/fold preflop if you have any reads he's decently aggro pre. You have a ton of leverage, he can't 6-bet you wide unless he's crazy, and he pretty much has to fold QQ/AK which are a significant part of his 4-betting range. AKs fine to call IP. I also discount a lot of KK/AA from his range when UTG limps and he iso's for 2.5x from MP lol.

As played, hand is completely fine as long as you did not fold the river. Just call.
Didnt think about the 5Bet/Fold when really deep nearly 200BB
I 3Bet 12.5bb, they 4 Bet 26 so what can I realistically 4Bet Fold 42ish

I didnt fold :), I didnt Call:eek: I thought fek it and shoved 11.45 when they led 6.03 on River although not sure what they can call with that I beat maybe AQ and crying call with KK/QQ. Agree about the call being far better.

He actually had AA and I don't think he could have dealt the cards better himself ;)
 
John A

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No, don't 5-bet/fold. Please.

Shove the turn. You have the Ah, this is a scare card for a lot of his range, and you have equity. We don't need much FE here for this to be profitable. As played, call river. He's committed himself, and you're right, he put himself into a position where he'll have to make some crying calls, but his sizing looks like he's a reg for your stakes so I'd assume he'd know that. The only thing you could probably get a crying call from in that case is AQ, which probably isn't 4-betting deep that often.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Please jam the turn if you don't like money.

No need to be condescending when you don't agree with someone. OPs can read all the comments and judge for themselves which advice they would like to take.
 
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MinhANguyen

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I completely disagree. He already stated no reads. By 5 betting we fold out all his bluffs that we can outplay IP post flop. We get called by/shoved on by QQ+ and maybe AK which we obv aren't doing great against.

Flatting the 4 bet is fine. I think the line you took post-flop is fine. I doubt we get overpairs to fold out by raising either the flop or turn so calling seems standard. Then the river is definitely a call.

You ever seen someone 6-bet jam QQ or AKo/AKs 200bb deep without history or against a non uber lag? If he calls QQ+/AKo some % of the time, it doesn't matter since we have position. But I expect AK to fold a huge %, and some QQ. KK rarely.

It is not easy to "outplay" someone with a pretty strong range holding A high. Also, general population is way underbluffing this spot. So there's not that many bluffs in their range you can expect to "outplay" postflop (with no initiative as well).

If their range is heavily skewed towards QQ+/AKo+ and no bluffs/very few, 5-bet folding in this particular spot with AKo should be much better in a vacuum than flatting. If they were really nitty, folding is fine. But flatting IP against that range is not great at all.

And what is your 5-betting range deep? Only AA? Im assuming you don't 5-bet 1010-QQ, and most/all KK IP.
 
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John A

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Please jam the turn if you don't like money.

No need to be condescending when you don't agree with someone. OPs can read all the comments and judge for themselves which advice they would like to take.

I was responding to rhombus, not you. I generally ignore what you post.

You fold out non heart QQ/JJ enough this deep, and AxKh. That alone with your equity makes it +EV play to jam the turn. But I'm sure you've done all the math and have figured it out. Same way you are advocating to 5-bet/fold I'm sure.
 
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seventhsense

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It is not easy to "outplay" someone with a pretty strong range holding A high.

If you can't outplay someone IP with AK because their range is so 'strong', then suggesting you should GII is absurd.

Also, if you have to resort to getting it in in a marginal spot because you can't outplay someone post-flop, you should move down limits.
 
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MinhANguyen

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I was responding to rhombus, not you. I generally ignore what you post.

You fold out non heart QQ/JJ enough this deep, and AxKh. That alone with your equity makes it +EV play to jam the turn. But I'm sure you've done all the math and have figured it out. Same way you are advocating to 5-bet/fold I'm sure.

Yeah, I know that. That just wasn't even a necessary comment to make, and I generally take dule notes to your comments.

Not going to even bother discussing with someone who believes they can't be wrong and has a condescending attitude towards me. Not even worth my time. Don't even bother responding.
 
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MinhANguyen

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If you can't outplay someone IP with AK because their range is so 'strong', then suggesting you should GII is absurd.

Also, if you have to resort to getting it in in a marginal spot because you can't outplay someone post-flop, you should move down limits.

When did I ever say I was shipping in AK 200bb deep? I suggested 5-bet/folding is an option to fold out the same hand, some QQ, and bluffs. That's more +EV than calling IP with an SPR of 3.5 vs a range of QQ+, AKo+ that has very little to no bluffs and with no initiative to "outplay" someone as you claim.

I never said to 5-bet/call AK. And you sure talk big. Unless you're some midstakes/high stakes online grinder pro who crushes, you should learn some modesty. Even if you were, you still should.

Postflop play is my stronger area of poker, thank you very much. Don't need you telling me to move down limits. Don't know why I even bother posting sometimes when some people can't even discuss poker without having their big ego get in the way. If you seriously think you can outplay a non-spewy player's standard 4-betting range that has few to 0 bluffs with A high postflop at 10NL with no initiative, you are the one who should move down limits.
 
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seventhsense

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vs a range of QQ+, AKo+ that has very little to no bluffs and with no initiative to "outplay" someone as you claim.

Why do you assume this is his entire range?

Anyway, sorry, I thought you wanted to GII. Sadly 5bet/folding is just as bad. You're suggesting turning AK into a bluff when it can play nicely IP against the villains range if we flat. If you are indeed saying he has little to no bluffs then you're asking a 10nl player to fold QQ/AK pre after 4 betting. Good luck. If they were scared of getting that in, they probably flat the 3 bet.

Why is there 'no initiative' post-flop? Yes we aren't the aggressor. I would far rather have position and a more obscure range.
 
John A

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Yeah, I know that. That just wasn't even a necessary comment to make, and I generally take dule notes to your comments.

Not going to even bother discussing with someone who believes they can't be wrong and has a condescending attitude towards me. Not even worth my time. Don't even bother responding.

I'm not sure what comment you're even talking about. I've addressed nothing to you on this thread except responding to you inane comment that shoving the turn is burning money.

It's funny how humans project though. You cry and whine on CC about how you can't beat 100NL on Bovada, and then you won't take advice on here or admit when you're flat out wrong. You turn everything into a personal battle instead of just staying with the argument, just like last time we got into it where I said, who cares about how you're judging me, prove that I'm wrong or defend your argument. All poker players have big egos, and if you can't handle that, you're picking the wrong game to play. You have a big ego as well.

You're flat out wrong again, and generally I do just ignore your bad advice, but rhombus has been studying w/ me for awhile, so I chose to address it because 5-bet/folding is really bad. You can make the choice to stay stubborn and not learn, but don't keep crying on here that you're losing or running bad and then just ignore the opportunity to actually learn from the better players in this community. You're just wasting everyone's time by doing so.
 
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MinhANguyen

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I'm not sure what comment you're even talking about. I've addressed nothing to you on this thread except responding to you inane comment that shoving the turn is burning money.

It's funny how humans project though. You cry and whine on CC about how you can't beat 100NL on Bovada, and then you won't take advice on here or admit when you're flat out wrong. You turn everything into a personal battle instead of just staying with the argument, just like last time we got into it where I said, who cares about how you're judging me, prove that I'm wrong or defend your argument. All poker players have big egos, and if you can't handle that, you're picking the wrong game to play. You have a big ego as well.

You're flat out wrong again, and generally I do just ignore your bad advice, but rhombus has been studying w/ me for awhile, so I chose to address it because 5-bet/folding is really bad. You can make the choice to stay stubborn and not learn, but don't keep crying on here that you're losing or running bad and then just ignore the opportunity to actually learn from the better players in this community. You're just wasting everyone's time by doing so.

Who said I can't beat 100NL on Bovada? I went on a large downswing. Who doesn't after 300k+ hands? It technically wasn't even a downswing. It was just an upswing followed by a smaller downswing. I was still a small winner over that sample size. I'm rolled for 200NL now, jackass.

I do take advice from people here. You're good and right a lot of the time, but sometimes the range you assign people is totally off. I'll give an example. What kind of 60bb short-stack fish has AA/Kx in his flop & turn check-calling range (1/4PSB) 60bb deep OOP when the turn brings more straight draws and a backdoor flush draw? Pretty much 0.

When I do defend my argument, I don't turn it personal unless you or someone else starts acting all high & mighty. I already told you to not bother responding, but it seems like beating dead horses is one of your favorite hobbies. Yeah, I might have somewhat of an ego. But I don't belittle other people like you and act like a jerk if they don't agree with my analysis.

There you go again, being a condescending jackass. I don't cry and whine on CC. I ask people how they deal with frustrations in poker. And what makes you think that I'm inferior to this community? I have beaten 5NL all the way to 100NL Zone, 6-max, and some full ring over a large sample. And now I'm rolled for 200NL in less than a year, despite taking a ton of breaks in-between. I study on 2+2 often with very good players, and I understand the game on a deeper level than most people would after years or even decades of play. Most of the players in the Cardschat forum cannot even beat 25NL-100NL regular 6-max or full-ring let alone Zone/Zoom, so I don't get where you get this idea that most of the players here are better than I am.

Seriously, dude. I asked you before not to bother responding. Just stop. It's seriously annoying and irritating. It's not going to get anywhere either.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Why do you assume this is his entire range?

Anyway, sorry, I thought you wanted to GII. Sadly 5bet/folding is just as bad. You're suggesting turning AK into a bluff when it can play nicely IP against the villains range if we flat. If you are indeed saying he has little to no bluffs then you're asking a 10nl player to fold QQ/AK pre after 4 betting. Good luck. If they were scared of getting that in, they probably flat the 3 bet.

Why is there 'no initiative' post-flop? Yes we aren't the aggressor. I would far rather have position and a more obscure range.

Yeah, it's cool.

It's not his entire range, but the general population is not 4-betting wide for value here and 4-bet bluffing anywhere near frequently enough. So he isn't 4-betting stuff like JJ/1010 here almost ever 200bb deep OOP vs our squeeze. AKo doesn't play that nicely since it doesn't make as many nutted hands as AKs, and doesn't flop/turn as much equity either to continue floating/bluff later streets.

Also, we are going to get bluffed off the same hand a lot when we continue postflop. Say this board didn't give us a backdoor nut flush draw. He's going to c-bet AK something like 40-60% of the time, and we fold the same hand. And we have really bad reverse implied odds when we flop/turn an A or a K.

We have no "initiative" because we did not have the last preflop betting action. Because the 4-bettor has "initiative," he can bluff c-bet with AK and make us fold the same hand. Or the rare suited Axs/AQ bluffs he may have. You can't really float/"outplay" someone holding AK with no backdoor flush draw or flush draw in a 4-bet pot with an SPR of 3.5 having no initiative.

Hm, well I haven't played 10NL for some time. But I'm sure regs find the fold button to a 5-bet deep with AK (for sure) and most/all of QQ at 100NL+ this deep. They are only continuing with KK/AA unless they are capable of a sick 6-bet bluff shove, and like I said the general population is way underbluffing in this spot to make flatting AKo IP that great.

I'm pretty sure 5-betting here is immediately +EV when you do the math. He might flat the remaining 3 combos of KK sometimes (gives us a chance to suck out postflop), he folds almost all AK/QQ (8-10 combos), only jams AA (3 combos), and folds out all his bluffs (0-3 combos). He doesn't have to fold that often for it to be +EV, since the 5-bet doesn't need to be that large.

Fwiw your range is not obscure when you flat AK here. Your calling range should be pretty well-defined (1010-QQ, most KK, AK, AA maybe if you're known to be tricky). And positional advantage is significantly reduced when the SPR is 3.5. The pot is way too bloated for us to make a ton of moves like bluffing-raising and floating postflop.
 
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John A

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Ok, I got it. Basically you name call, get the last word in, and I'm not supposed to respond. Got it. Sounds like dejavu from last time this happened. lol You need to look in the mirror badly man. Your advice about 5-bet/folding is leaving out some very important factors (hint: you just put 1/4 or more of your stack in this deep and give up 100% of your equity when you fold - your combos and assumptions are off. And finally it's about what the highest EV line, not about what is +EV). There's thread after thread on CC where people are trying to help you and point out why you're incorrect, but you won't take it. That's your purgative.

100NL bovada plays like 5/10NL at most of the sites that people post on CC here. I never said you were inferior to anyone. I said you complain about losing, and then don't take advice. That's just wasting people's time when they do try and help you.

I sincerely have nothing against you personally. But I'm going to step in and correct bad advice by you when it's being considered by people I work with on here and consider poker friends. Rhom is a good guy and he's trying to learn the game like we all are.

Back to ignore, and GL with your poker game.

Who said I can't beat 100NL on Bovada? I went on a large downswing. Who doesn't after 300k+ hands? It technically wasn't even a downswing. It was just an upswing followed by a smaller downswing. I was still a small winner over that sample size. I'm rolled for 200NL now, jackass.

I do take advice from people here. You're good and right a lot of the time, but sometimes the range you assign people is totally off. I'll give an example. What kind of 60bb short-stack fish has AA/Kx in his flop & turn check-calling range (1/4PSB) 60bb deep OOP when the turn brings more straight draws and a backdoor flush draw? Pretty much 0.

When I do defend my argument, I don't turn it personal unless you or someone else starts acting all high & mighty. I already told you to not bother responding, but it seems like beating dead horses is one of your favorite hobbies. Yeah, I might have somewhat of an ego. But I don't belittle other people like you and act like a jerk if they don't agree with my analysis.

There you go again, being a condescending jackass. I don't cry and whine on CC. I ask people how they deal with frustrations in poker. And what makes you think that I'm inferior to this community? I have beaten 5NL all the way to 100NL Zone, 6-max, and some full ring over a large sample. And now I'm rolled for 200NL in less than a year, despite taking a ton of breaks in-between. I study on 2+2 often with very good players, and I understand the game on a deeper level than most people would after years or even decades of play. Most of the players in the Cardschat forum cannot even beat 25NL-100NL regular 6-max or full-ring let alone Zone/Zoom, so I don't get where you get this idea that most of the players here are better than I am.

Seriously, dude. I asked you before not to bother responding. Just stop. It's seriously annoying and irritating. It's not going to get anywhere either.
 
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seventhsense

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Yeah, it's cool.

It's not his entire range, but the general population is not 4-betting wide for value here and 4-bet bluffing anywhere near frequently enough. So he isn't 4-betting stuff like JJ/1010 here almost ever 200bb deep OOP vs our squeeze. AKo doesn't play that nicely since it doesn't make as many nutted hands as AKs, and doesn't flop/turn as much equity either to continue floating/bluff later streets.

Also, we are going to get bluffed off the same hand a lot when we continue postflop. Say this board didn't give us a backdoor nut flush draw. He's going to c-bet AK something like 40-60% of the time, and we fold the same hand. And we have really bad reverse implied odds when we flop/turn an A or a K.

We have no "initiative" because we did not have the last preflop betting action. Because the 4-bettor has "initiative," he can bluff c-bet with AK and make us fold the same hand. Or the rare suited Axs/AQ bluffs he may have. You can't really float/"outplay" someone holding AK with no backdoor flush draw or flush draw in a 4-bet pot with an SPR of 3.5 having no initiative.

Hm, well I haven't played 10NL for some time. But I'm sure regs find the fold button to a 5-bet deep with AK (for sure) and most/all of QQ at 100NL+ this deep. They are only continuing with KK/AA unless they are capable of a sick 6-bet bluff shove, and like I said the general population is way underbluffing in this spot to make flatting AKo IP that great.

I'm pretty sure 5-betting here is immediately +EV when you do the math. He might flat the remaining 3 combos of KK sometimes (gives us a chance to suck out postflop), he folds almost all AK/QQ (8-10 combos), only jams AA (3 combos), and folds out all his bluffs (0-3 combos). He doesn't have to fold that often for it to be +EV, since the 5-bet doesn't need to be that large.

Fwiw your range is not obscure when you flat AK here. Your calling range should be pretty well-defined (1010-QQ, most KK, AK, AA maybe if you're known to be tricky). And positional advantage is significantly reduced when the SPR is 3.5. The pot is way too bloated for us to make a ton of moves like bluffing-raising and floating postflop.

This isn't a 100nl hand, you must play accordingly. At 100nl the decision would be the same though.

Like John said, we aren't looking for +EV, but the highest EV. If you are planning to fold to a simple c-bet then ofc don't flat the 4bet but I am floating on a good chunk of flops that permit it, to see if he shuts down on the turn.

You clearly aren't seeing our side of this argument so I'll leave it at this but this isn't even a marginal spot.
 
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