$10 NLHE 6-max: AQ CO vs BTN 4 bet pot

fletchdad

fletchdad

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OK, so here is a spot I have a lot of trouble with. A reg, fairly TAG, 4 bets me here.Over small sample size he has a 4bet% of 20%. This is a spot where I just fold. Is there any reason to not fold here, and what do I want to look at?

I mean, I dont really like calling here his raise. But I fold here to a 4 bet like all the time. He wont know this in such a small sample size I guess, but just wondering if I want to consider any other line than fold here, and if so, why and what?

poker stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2082118
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $5.28 - VPIP: 55, PFR: 10, 3B: 9, AF: 3,8, hands: 137
UTG: $11.55 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 8, 3B: 1, AF: 1,0, Hands: 159
MP: $10.52 - VPIP: 16, PFR: 15, 3B: 6, AF: 0,0, Hands: 82
CO: $12.11 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 17, 3B: 2, AF: 1,4, Hands: 168
Hero (BTN): $11.40 - VPIP: 21, PFR: 16, 3B: 7, AF: 2,3, Hands: 4384
SB: $7.90 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 19, 3B: 0, AF: 1,0, Hands: 57

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with A :diamond: Q :heart:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, 2 folds, CO raises to $2.70, Hero?
 
ChuckTs

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Why are you 3betting in the first place?
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Why are you 3betting in the first place?


I dont want to be folding this. So I call or 3 bet. It seems to me that calling is weak. (Do I want to call and see a flop and then see how the flop looks and use my position and the flop texture, if I can?)

So why I 3 bet? I guess to mainly get folds or calls and see how the flop pans out.. But here is my dilemma: This is a spot I have trouble with (so maybe calling better after all???), but I cant just call and play fit or fold here all the time, but obviously when I 3 bet and this happens I dont know what to do. Well, I do know what I do here. Fold. But is that too ...uhhh... BAD?
 
ChuckTs

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Folding is bad. We have position, we have a hand that dominates a typical ~%25 CO range, and hopefully a skill edge on villain as well. We're most definitely not playing fit or fold postflop - we can bluff raise and float tons of boards where we have overs, gutshots, flush draws or backdoor draws, boards where our range is going to be much stronger than his, boards where he's likely to give up on a barrel, etc etc.

Your problems with spots like these are the basis for why we polarize our 3betting range against most regs. When we 3bet a hand like AQ and villain 4bets, do we stack it or fold? If we're planning on folding, why are we 3betting it in the first place if we expect most of villain's range to fold or 4bet preflop?

Why not 3bet a hand like T8s instead?
 
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ScottishMatt

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Yeah I find myself in these spots sometimes too. I think I gather what Chuck is saying in that you cannot extract more value from him by 3-betting because he isn't bad enough to flat OOP. You either win the raise + blinds or lose when he 4-bets and has you dominated.

Vs a fish we would merge our range so AQs/AJs are good for 3-betting as a value hand

Vs a reg we would polarise so you either have a hand good enough to stack off with or you 3-bet bluff with a weaker hand that can flop a ton of equity, like suited connectors and suited one gappers.


In this spot it is definitely a fold, with his 3x sizing I don't think he can be bluffing here ever.
 
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baudib1

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Another reason to flat is that it's a good hand to have if you have squeezy players in the blinds -- should have no problem backraise-getting it in vs. an aggro squeezer once CO folds.
 
Deco

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Folding is bad. We have position, we have a hand that dominates a typical ~%25 CO range, and hopefully a skill edge on villain as well. We're most definitely not playing fit or fold postflop - we can bluff raise and float tons of boards where we have overs, gutshots, flush draws or backdoor draws, boards where our range is going to be much stronger than his, boards where he's likely to give up on a barrel, etc etc.

Your problems with spots like these are the basis for why we polarize our 3betting range against most regs. When we 3bet a hand like AQ and villain 4bets, do we stack it or fold? If we're planning on folding, why are we 3betting it in the first place if we expect most of villain's range to fold or 4bet preflop?

Why not 3bet a hand like T8s instead?

Ditto
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Folding is bad. We have position, we have a hand that dominates a typical ~%25 CO range, and hopefully a skill edge on villain as well. We're most definitely not playing fit or fold postflop - we can bluff raise and float tons of boards where we have overs, gutshots, flush draws or backdoor draws, boards where our range is going to be much stronger than his, boards where he's likely to give up on a barrel, etc etc.

Your problems with spots like these are the basis for why we polarize our 3betting range against most regs. When we 3bet a hand like AQ and villain 4bets, do we stack it or fold? If we're planning on folding, why are we 3betting it in the first place if we expect most of villain's range to fold or 4bet preflop?

Why not 3bet a hand like T8s instead?

Yeah I find myself in these spots sometimes too. I think I gather what Chuck is saying in that you cannot extract more value from him by 3-betting because he isn't bad enough to flat OOP. You either win the raise + blinds or lose when he 4-bets and has you dominated.

Vs a fish we would merge our range so AQs/AJs are good for 3-betting as a value hand

Vs a reg we would polarise so you either have a hand good enough to stack off with or you 3-bet bluff with a weaker hand that can flop a ton of equity, like suited connectors and suited one gappers.


In this spot it is definitely a fold, with his 3x sizing I don't think he can be bluffing here ever.

Thanks for all the comments.

I spoke a bit about stuff in my semi-blog thread "fletchdad makes another stab", like how I have heard stuff like this enough to know it, but seem to have let this knowledge slip through the sieve that I call my brain. ChuckTs and I have spoken at length about s lot of stuff he (you) is (are) commenting in different posts.

It is like, reading the comments above "duh" but why did I have to read this AGAIN? I should know it. (duh meaning, why didnt I realize and think of this? It IS something CT has spoke to me before about. I wonder sometimes if I am just too dense to absorb it....:-( )

Anyway, I am trying to get a real focus on my learning and playing, and the last couple of weeks have been the most intense in terms of seriousness that I have ever done. (Still not a drop of alcohol, and I am guessing that has not been detrimental to my progress).

Vid still to come in the blog site for all to tear me apart..... soon I hope. I think I will do one at 5nl at FTP and one at 10nl at stars, or should I just do one. I find the level of aggressive play way different between the 2 sites, FTP being by far the fishyer site. I am guessing 30 minutes more than enough.
 
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swingro

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It is like, reading the comments above "duh" but why did I have to read this AGAIN? I should know it. (duh meaning, why didnt I realize and think of this? It IS something CT has spoke to me before about. I wonder sometimes if I am just too dense to absorb it....:-( )
Lol. Do you think this is easy ? If it were we'd all know how to play perfect in profitable spots. I do not think you are too dense. Simply it cannot be done in one read. Learn, play/practice , learn again, play untill it will come natural on reading opponents stats and board textures. The fact that you took another stab it does not mean that it will not take time. Every lvl is harder and harder. When i read or watch others doing it it seems easy, but when i go to the tables i need someone to sweat me when i do the new thing. I was amazed watching videos where the coach knew the range of the villain and the way it contracts every street untill you can tell what the opponent is holding quite precisely. I am still amazed that i rarely can tell what the villain holds if it is not obvious.
One thing i can tell for sure is that i am improving.
So flechdad you are not the only one out there. If you feel that your game is improving than keep it on. If you are not tilting i am sure that you can increase your winrate. It s just a matter of improving your game .
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Lol. Do you think this is easy ? If it were we'd all know how to play perfect in profitable spots. I do not think you are too dense. Simply it cannot be done in one read. Learn, play/practice , learn again, play untill it will come natural on reading opponents stats and board textures. The fact that you took another stab it does not mean that it will not take time. Every lvl is harder and harder. When i read or watch others doing it it seems easy, but when i go to the tables i need someone to sweat me when i do the new thing. I was amazed watching videos where the coach knew the range of the villain and the way it contracts every street untill you can tell what the opponent is holding quite precisely. I am still amazed that i rarely can tell what the villain holds if it is not obvious.
One thing i can tell for sure is that i am improving.
So flechdad you are not the only one out there. If you feel that your game is improving than keep it on. If you are not tilting i am sure that you can increase your winrate. It s just a matter of improving your game .


Thanks you for this post! I do feel I am improving. I will keep updates on a semi-regular basis in my other thread.
 
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