$10 NLHE 6-max: All-in Pre or all-in on the flop

bgomez89

bgomez89

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$10 NL HE 6-max: All-in Pre or all-in on the flop

Stacks:
UTG with $2.00
MP with $9.65
CO with $10.00
BTN with $20.65
SB with $20.75
BB with $3.95




Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
Dealt to CO:Q♥ A♥
Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
UTG calls [$0.10]
1 players fold.
Hero raises $0.30 to $0.40
BTN calls [$0.40]
1 players fold.
BB raises $0.80 to $1.20
2 players fold.
Hero calls [$0.80]
BTN calls [$0.80]
Total folds this street: 4
Potsize: $3.75
Flop:
5♣ Q♠ 8♠
BB bets [$1.20]
[BTN] checks
Hero raises $1.80 to $3
1 players fold.
BB calls

My question was should I have just shoved pre after BB's raise to squeeze out btn? btw no reads on BB, btn was calling alot
 
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IveGot0uts

IveGot0uts

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I'm not a 6maxer, though I'm thinking about trying it out, so I'm posting here as much to get this to pop up for other's responses as to feedback.

That being said I feel pretty confident here that I would have liked a shove preflop assuming that if we have any hands on the BB he doesn't look like a supernit. If the lack of hands on the BB is cause he just sat down i especially like it, as it seems fairly popular to 3bet a blind steal in your first hand to skew immediate numbers in people's HUD's, and so much the better if its a squeeze. There are just a lot of reasons that jamming here looks nice to me. FE like a mofo, and oppoenents in spots where they are likely to make large errors.
 
Mase31683

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The answer depends heavily on BB's 3bet%. When you raise from the CO, and the BB 3bets, his range is going to be approximately whatever his total 3bet% stat is.

When you got 3bet, the pot is $2 and it costs you $0.80 to call. If you decide to shove preflop, let's just assume the button folds since it makes things easier right now. You're effectively putting another $2.75 in the pot since that's what the BB has left. You will be risking $2.75 to win the $2 in the pot + $2.75 from villain, so you're giving yourself and your opponnent 2.375:1 when called. That means you need to have 29.6% equity in the pot assuming 0 fold equity.

At micros most players 3bet is around 4% or lower, so here is how AQs rates against some of those 3bet%'s:

4%: 36.4%
3%: 32.1%
2%: 27.8%
1%: 25.4%

As long as this villain's 3bet% stat is 3% or higher, then 4bet jamming our hand is going to be profitable against his range.
 
slycbnew

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In addition to Mase's nice writeup, note that BB is playing 40bb's. Half-stackers are usually pretty bad and looking for excuses to double up - getting a 3bet% on these guys is great, you'll see alot of them w a very high 3bet% - alot of AT+'s, broad pp's range in particular. Readless I'm pretty comfortable shoving pf against a half stack, esp to shut out BTN (though from your desc of him I won't be unhappy if he calls the shove) - but note they generally don't fold to shoves, your FE is nil.
 
bgomez89

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Just wondering how this would differ if BB still had 100bbs. Do we still raise to squeeze button or just call?

What about that same situation if button wasn't around?
 
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Liveone1

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Honestly,math and HUD's aside, if the BTN is a known calling station then why are you only raising 4xBB, yet considering shoving with AQ? Why would you ever consider shoving with AQ or even Ak Preflop in the first place, especially in a cash game at these stakes?

Considering that you knew nothing about your opponent, the BB, and it's likely that he's trying to intimidate you, calling his re-raise with A,Q wasn't a bad idea in my book, but for the love of god you need to see a flop with a hand like that or even AK. This is not a tournament, and even then a flop is preferred. If it were just you two, in this case, putting him all in like that after you hit your pair wasn't a bad move IMO.

Since it worked out that way, and you hit your top pair - top kicker against a calling station, and in all likelihood a bully (with either a bluff, maybe low Pair, Ax-Kx, QJ??) following up with a standard continuation bet, I probably would've re-raised as well, but it would've been larger [3xbet] to take the pot from the BTN right there. I'm definitely not calling, so its either raise or fold postflop. Since I'm confident that I have the BB beat with my TPTK, then its gotta be a 3x Raise on the flop so that the BTN doesn't draw out on me. If you call, your just asking for him to raise because that'd be a very weak play in that situation and being the type of player he is he just might raise it and now you really have a decision to make. That's passive/weak poker for you, so only call in those situations if you flopped your set and there's no flush draw out there.

If the calling station calls, then I'd say you need to slow down. If he/she hits their flush or 2 middle pair on the turn, well...lol that's online poker for you. At this point check or fold if the pot gets any larger. You should probably realize your TPTK is no good and chunk it. I've learned never to chase top pair, even against a calling station, most of my loses came from that. Every now and then I'd win a huge pot with TP, but my losses far outweighed my winnings.

Weather I'm wrong or not about Postflop play (I'm either raisin' or foldin' no matter WHAT), I know you shouldn't be shoving Preflop with AQ ever - not at these levels or calling. Don't even think about it. Hell, it might be better to fold all together and stop playing for a few hours if the thought crosses your mind.

It sounds to me like this calling station, the BTN, was actually putting you on tilt. If he wants to donate chips, perfect. Your there to receive donations from players like him anyway, but you need to keep your wits about you to do it.
 
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bgomez89

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.

Weather I'm wrong or not about Postflop play (I'm either raisin' or foldin' no matter WHAT), I know you shouldn't be shoving Preflop with AQ ever - not at these levels or calling. Don't even think about it. Hell, it might be better to fold all together and stop playing for a few hours if the thought crosses your mind.

It sounds to me like this calling station, the BTN, was actually putting you on tilt. If he wants to donate chips, perfect. Your there to receive donations from players like him anyway, but you need to keep your wits about you to do it.
I can't tell if you're trolling or being serious
 
slycbnew

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Just wondering how this would differ if BB still had 100bbs. Do we still raise to squeeze button or just call?

What about that same situation if button wasn't around?

I'm putting my thoughts here, but I'm not confident it's the best thought process.

Without btn - I'm not crazy about getting all in pf w AQ/AK pf anymore readless w 100bb effective stacks - I'm not showing a profit doing this. I'd rather play these hands postflop ip. AQs has a lot of drawing potential and there are a lot of flops/turns we can be aggressive w.

W btn there, though, I don't really like calling here, I definitely want position if I'm trying to play postflop.
 
slycbnew

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Honestly,math and HUD's aside, if the BTN is a known calling station then why are you only raising 4xBB, yet considering shoving with AQ? Why would you ever consider shoving with AQ or even Ak Preflop in the first place, especially in a cash game at these stakes?

Considering that you knew nothing about your opponent, the BB, and it's likely that he's trying to intimidate you, calling his re-raise with A,Q wasn't a bad idea in my book, but for the love of god you need to see a flop with a hand like that or even AK. This is not a tournament, and even then a flop is preferred. If it were just you two, in this case, putting him all in like that after you hit your pair wasn't a bad move IMO.

Since it worked out that way, and you hit your top pair - top kicker against a calling station, and in all likelihood a bully (with either a bluff, maybe low Pair, Ax-Kx, QJ??) following up with a standard continuation bet, I probably would've re-raised as well, but it would've been larger [3xbet] to take the pot from the BTN right there. I'm definitely not calling, so its either raise or fold postflop. Since I'm confident that I have the BB beat with my TPTK, then its gotta be a 3x Raise on the flop so that the BTN doesn't draw out on me. If you call, your just asking for him to raise because that'd be a very weak play in that situation and being the type of player he is he just might raise it and now you really have a decision to make. That's passive/weak poker for you, so only call in those situations if you flopped your set and there's no flush draw out there.

If the calling station calls, then I'd say you need to slow down. If he/she hits their flush or 2 middle pair on the turn, well...lol that's online poker for you. At this point check or fold if the pot gets any larger. You should probably realize your TPTK is no good and chunk it. I've learned never to chase top pair, even against a calling station, most of my loses came from that. Every now and then I'd win a huge pot with TP, but my losses far outweighed my winnings.

Weather I'm wrong or not about Postflop play (I'm either raisin' or foldin' no matter WHAT), I know you shouldn't be shoving Preflop with AQ ever - not at these levels or calling. Don't even think about it. Hell, it might be better to fold all together and stop playing for a few hours if the thought crosses your mind.

It sounds to me like this calling station, the BTN, was actually putting you on tilt. If he wants to donate chips, perfect. Your there to receive donations from players like him anyway, but you need to keep your wits about you to do it.

There are a lot of interesting points in here - a couple of thoughts:

1. Since BTN calls before the 3bet, we now have a potential squeeze play by BB, which weakens his range a bit - readless without btn's call, the stadard readless 3bet range is KK+/AK and we're behind, w btn's call, BB's range is a little larger.

2. BB is playing a halfstack - halfstackers usually have a wider range than 100bb stacks.

3. We're not far behind BB's range, if we're behind at all.

4. Calling stations are playing too many hands - we're definitely ahead of btn's range. The question is whether we want to allow him a good price to see the flop or not.

5. There's dead money in the pot already.

6. If we shove and win enough times over the long run for this to be profitable over the long run, and it shows more profit than calling, then it's the right play.
 
Mase31683

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With AQs you need the BB's 3bet range to be 8% to make 4bet jamming marginally profitable for 100bb's.
 
bgomez89

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I'm putting my thoughts here, but I'm not confident it's the best thought process.

Without btn - I'm not crazy about getting all in pf w AQ/AK pf anymore readless w 100bb effective stacks - I'm not showing a profit doing this. I'd rather play these hands postflop ip. AQs has a lot of drawing potential and there are a lot of flops/turns we can be aggressive w.

W btn there, though, I don't really like calling here, I definitely want position if I'm trying to play postflop.

I'm sorry I should have been more specific. What I meant to ask was what would have been a good play in reaction to bbs 3bet if we all had 100 bbs(not if I should shove).would I just call in pos or raise since the button was sticking around?
 
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slycbnew

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I'm raising to about $3.10 - $3.25, fold to a shove from BB.
 
ImolAyrton

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I had folded preflop. He reraises you. I think thats a high pair or something like AQ or AK. If he has something like a set, KK or AA this is a perfect flop. After his bet you rerais him and he just calls. I think he figured out you flopped a hand and is slowplaying you. I wouldnt bet or call a bet anymore here.
 
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Liveone1

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There are a lot of interesting points in here - a couple of thoughts:

1. Since BTN calls before the 3bet, we now have a potential squeeze play by BB, which weakens his range a bit - readless without btn's call, the stadard readless 3bet range is KK+/AK and we're behind, w btn's call, BB's range is a little larger.

2. BB is playing a halfstack - halfstackers usually have a wider range than 100bb stacks.

3. We're not far behind BB's range, if we're behind at all.

Couldn't agree more. This is what I thought was implied when I referred to the BB as a bully trying to intimidate.

4. Calling stations are playing too many hands - we're definitely ahead of btn's range. The question is whether we want to allow him a good price to see the flop or not.

Agreed, this is why I said him calling the BB's raise was a good move (also considering 1, 2 and 3). He still needs to see a flop because he's holding AQ even though there's a BTN calling station and especially because BTN has a wide range (thus calling station) IMO. This would allow a good price (for a Calling station) to see the flop. Considering this guy has a ridiculous range and called those preflop raises, I'd assume he'd fold to a large enough PostFlop raise and I'd personally be willing to take my chances on him hitting a set, 2 pair or flush. The only other option would be folding preflop all together since I'd never consider shoving with AQ. That wouldn't happen 'cause I feel we have BB beat, and BTN is an ATM, but again the flop is essential 'cause I'm not putting chips on the line for Ace high.

5. There's dead money in the pot already.

I think I'm missing something here.

6. If we shove and win enough times over the long run for this to be profitable over the long run, and it shows more profit than calling, then it's the right play.

100% correct, I just wouldn't take the time or take the possible hit to the BR to find out. I'd wait for a more solid (and as guaranteed as possible in poker [AA, KK]) hand to put my faith in and shove Preflop with. AQ is no better than 22 preflop, and I don't elaborate here lol. Not to mention KK's or AK. It's like shoving with AJ or A10 in my book (wouldn't even shove AK). I just won't do it, not enough confidence in the hand.

^^
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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so we 4bet with AQ?

With regard to 100bb stacks, I don't like 4betting. We have a solid hand, and position, and I'd much prefer playing a smaller sized pot since we're most likely to end up with one pair at best.

If villain is bad enough to play a big pot with a worse hand than our one pair, we don't have to worry about squeezing every drop of value out of every hand anyway, since he'll blunder his chips away to us as long as he's sitting.
 
slycbnew

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With regard to 100bb stacks, I don't like 4betting. We have a solid hand, and position, and I'd much prefer playing a smaller sized pot since we're most likely to end up with one pair at best.

If villain is bad enough to play a big pot with a worse hand than our one pair, we don't have to worry about squeezing every drop of value out of every hand anyway, since he'll blunder his chips away to us as long as he's sitting.

HU, totally agree. We're ok w BTN coming along? I don't mind it, the only reason to 4bet imo is BTN - but he probably has such a wide range that I guess I'm not totally opposed to flatting. My instinct is always to isolate, so I'm prob over-reacting w a 4bet.
 
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