$10 NLHE 6-max: AKo on diamond flop

Picatrix

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$25 NLHE 6-max: AKo on diamond flop

I raise UTG+1 with AdKs to 0.75, UTG folded. CO called, Button folded, SB folded and BB called. Flop comes 79J all diamonds. BB bets 2.35, I call, CO folds. Turn is 6s, BB bets 7.05 and I call. River is 2c, BB checks and I bet 10.57, BB folds and I win the pot of 20.10. What does CardsChat community think about how this hand was played?

Effective stack size preflop was 33.18
 
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Aces2w1n

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Lucky BB gave up I guess. Personally i'd probably fold turn, I'm assuming we would only need a flush most times to be best.

A lot of stronger players will bet into you with a set or two pair.

But someone like BB played draws aggressive and gaveup, so position won the day! :)
 
Picatrix

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If he's betting that big then he's either trying to protect a marginal hand or draw to one more diamond to make his flush. In either situation he's clearly not worried about me folding, and when you have a monster you want to keep your opponent in the hand to make money off them. By the river, since he saw no more diamonds and he's obviously suspicious at the fact that I've called two progressively bigger bets, he's just ready to get out while he still has a stack. He might even have been betting with a crappy flush like 2d3d, unlikely but possible, my thinking at the time was that my bet on the river was enough to account for that or any busted draws. Even if he caught 2 pair or a set, he has to be worried that at this point I might already have a made flush and I'm trying to trap him.
 
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emarcolino

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What does "raise to 0.75" mean?
 
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emarcolino

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Ah, got it. First I thought it was a $25 buy-in tournament. Sorry.
 
Picatrix

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Yeah 25$NL Hold 'Em 6 max cash game haha :) I did mess up and put 10$ NL when making the post though, everyone its actually 25$NL.
 
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emarcolino

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Now about the hand. I'd usually prefer raising on the flop (to about $6), trying to win the pot right away. You got the nut flush draw and two overcards, but still not a made hand. It's weird that he calls pre-flop and leads out of position.

If he calls on the flop and checks the turn, I go all in if I didn't hit the flush.

All that assuming I have no info on the opponent.
 
Picatrix

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I had notes on him that he was capable of cbetting on flop and double barreling on turn with air. So with the flop the way it was I thought it'd be best to try to let him do his thing. If I get a diamond he's screwed, but I didn't. Didn't end up mattering because I got him to think I already had 2 diamonds, or at least something better than whatever made him lead OOP.
 
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emarcolino

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The way the hand was played, I think it's ok to call the flop, but I don't like calling the turn at all. It is approximately a pot size bet on the turn, and you are not getting great odds. It's a clear all-in/fold situation to me. If I think he is capable of bluffing or overbetting with a medium-strenght hand in that situation, I'm more inclined to go all-in. If I think he is only value betting like that, I definitely fold on the turn.
 
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emarcolino

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I had notes on him that he was capable of cbetting on flop and double barreling on turn with air. So with the flop the way it was I thought it'd be best to try to let him do his thing. If I get a diamond he's screwed, but I didn't. Didn't end up mattering because I got him to think I already had 2 diamonds, or at least something better than whatever made him lead OOP.

In this case, I understand the flop play, but I'm also never ever ever calling on that turn. Even his double barrel "bluff" might be beating Ace high, like a small pair or something like that. I'd go all in to make him fold right away, and I'd also wouldn't want to take the risk of him hitting something on the river if he is behind. The way you played, you didn't hit any outs on the river and bet purely for bluffing, so if he was valuebetting, he'd call the river and you would lose your money anyway, without having the chance to hit any more cards. And you couldn't extract any value from a weaker hand (like you didn't). So I see no point in checking the turn and betting the river instead of already raising the turn with still a card to come. There is no upside for that turn/river play in any hands he could have, from what I think.
 
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Picatrix

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In this case, I understand the flop play, but I'm also never ever ever calling on that turn. Even his double barrel "bluff" might be beating Ace high, like a small pair or something like that. I'd go all in to make him fold right away, and I'd also wouldn't want to take the risk of him hitting something on the river if he is behind. The way you played, you didn't hit any outs on the river and bet purely for bluffing, so if he was valuebetting, he'd call the river and you would lose your money without having the chance to hit any more cards. And you couldn't extract any value from a weaker hand (like you didn't). So I see no point in checking the turn and betting the river instead of already raising the turn with still a card to come. There is no upside for that turn/river play in any hands he could have, from what I think.

If he had one pair, what could he have caught that improved his hand on the river? Either something that gives him trips or something that gave him two pair. Both of which the flush I was representing beat. If the river was a diamond, it gave him one more opportunity to bluff or try to valuebet a strong diamond like Qd or Kd, and I'd have stacked him. If he already had 2 pair he's almost never hitting a full house by river. Even if he had a straight, the three diamonds make it so easy for me to make him doubt the relative strength of it. I won't argue how I think he would have played if he caught a straight flush on flop because it's so rare it doesn't matter. I won't dispute whatever he had probably beat my Ace high but I was repping the flush.

Also, imo shoving won't necessarily make him fold. If he calls I lose a lot more. And he might call because shoving is really obvious, that's basically either screaming "PLEASE FOLD" or "I HAVE THE NUTS" or "I HAVE A MARGINAL HAND AND WANT TO PROTECT IT" and 2/3 of those possibilities are good for him.
 
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Well, I see your point, great explantion. But I think that line would only work with really advanced players. If you considered him like that, then I say excellent play. If not, I guess he would be calling with two pairs or something that beat you anyway...
Also, stacking him with an A-flush over a K or Q-flush if the diamond comes is a possibility I hadn't thought of. Nice. =)
 
Picatrix

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Well, I see your point, great explantion. But I think that line would only work with really advanced players. If you considered him like that, then I say excellent play. If not, I guess he would be calling with two pairs or something that beat you anyway...
Also, stacking him with an A-flush over a K or Q-flush if the diamond comes is a possibility I hadn't thought of. Nice. =)
Honestly I think assuming he was really advanced was my only mistake. This is only 0.10/0.25c stakes so there are a lot of people who will call with 2 pair or trips on this flop, or even with AA or KK. This may not work sometimes so I'm glad it worked this time and I read him right but I might read the next guy as being more advanced than he really is :( but thank you for the complement :)
 
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Calling flop and turn isn't representing a flush, raising flop/turn is. When you flat call both streets you're representing overpairs/top pair, often with a good diamond in your hand. You could also have draws, but usually draws are in the muck after two pot sized bets.

I think calling the turn is a mistake. You're not even close to getting the direct odds to call, and if he has a made hand he's not bluffing a 4th diamond, he's check/folding or making a blocker bet and praying for a cheap showdown. If he has the K or Q of diamonds, you probably stack him, but he has to have one of those two specific cards and the river has to come a diamond. That situation alone doesn't get you the implied odds you need to make this call. As a general rule, you don't want to be relying on the implied odds of hitting a flush with 4 of the same suit on the board.

Shoving the turn is also a mistake, for the reasons you indicated. You're getting very few better hands to fold. Folding is probably your best play.

When you bet the river, you're polarized. The one pair hands that you were representing by calling the flop and turn are checking behind, so when you don't do so you represent either a slowplayed flush or a missed draw. You can't really have any sets/two pairs/straights, because those hands are going to be playing the flop and turn a lot more aggressively with a 3-flush on board.

If you're going to bluff the river, don't bet small. I'm probably not folding anything better than TPGK to that bet. Sometimes you'll have made flushes, but if you have a missed draw more than 25% of the time there the call is correct. There's a reason being polarized and overbetting goes hand in hand. You need to be shoving the river with both your missed draws and your flushes. If you think you're getting a competent player off a good pair or better giving him 3:1 on the river when every draw missed, you need to reevaluate.

Given your notes about villain double barreling with air, and the fact that he folded to a small river bet, chances are he had garbage, or one of many missed draws. KT, QT, KQ, AT, Q9, and K9 all with a diamond I think are likely hands for villain. I think checking back your showdown value is the best play on the river.

Imo you got lucky that you were able to take down the pot on the river. I think in the long run both calling the turn and betting small on the river are both -EV in comparison to folding and checking behind.
 
Picatrix

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Calling flop and turn isn't representing a flush, raising flop/turn is. When you flat call both streets you're representing overpairs/top pair, often with a good diamond in your hand. You could also have draws, but usually draws are in the muck after two pot sized bets.

I think calling the turn is a mistake. You're not even close to getting the direct odds to call, and if he has a made hand he's not bluffing a 4th diamond, he's check/folding or making a blocker bet and praying for a cheap showdown. If he has the K or Q of diamonds, you probably stack him, but he has to have one of those two specific cards and the river has to come a diamond. That situation alone doesn't get you the implied odds you need to make this call. As a general rule, you don't want to be relying on the implied odds of hitting a flush with 4 of the same suit on the board.

Shoving the turn is also a mistake, for the reasons you indicated. You're getting very few better hands to fold. Folding is probably your best play.

When you bet the river, you're polarized. The one pair hands that you were representing by calling the flop and turn are checking behind, so when you don't do so you represent either a slowplayed flush or a missed draw. You can't really have any sets/two pairs/straights, because those hands are going to be playing the flop and turn a lot more aggressively with a 3-flush on board.

If you're going to bluff the river, don't bet small. I'm probably not folding anything better than TPGK to that bet. Sometimes you'll have made flushes, but if you have a missed draw more than 25% of the time there the call is correct. There's a reason being polarized and overbetting goes hand in hand. You need to be shoving the river with both your missed draws and your flushes. If you think you're getting a competent player off a good pair or better giving him 3:1 on the river when every draw missed, you need to reevaluate.

Given your notes about villain double barreling with air, and the fact that he folded to a small river bet, chances are he had garbage, or one of many missed draws. KT, QT, KQ, AT, Q9, and K9 all with a diamond I think are likely hands for villain. I think checking back your showdown value is the best play on the river.

Imo you got lucky that you were able to take down the pot on the river. I think in the long run both calling the turn and betting small on the river are both -EV in comparison to folding and checking behind.

Don't agree with much of what you said but thanks for the input.
 
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string

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Don't agree with much of what you said but thanks for the input.

Of course. 25NL is pretty much where the micros stop and players become more aware/start developing non-ABC more balanced playstyles.

A lot of how this hand should play depends on your style/your opponent's style and history you have, which is all impossible to convey in a single hand.
 
Figaroo2

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It's difficult to analyse the hand if you don't put the villain's stats or your reads on the original post.
I still don't know what the BB players vpip/aggression levels are so its difficult to comment. (I have around 125k hands at this stake level)

I would only be calling this turn if I was already planning to bluff the river if we whiff because you know he never usually fires the 3rd barrel or has a low wtsd%
You said that he can fire unimproved on the turn, but did you have any read on how often he triples?. If you know he rarely triples then fine, if not then I don't like it.
 
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It's difficult to analyse the hand if you don't put the villain's stats or your reads on the original post.
I still don't know what the BB players vpip/aggression levels are so its difficult to comment. (I have around 125k hands at this stake level)

I would only be calling this turn if I was already planning to bluff the river if we whiff because you know he never usually fires the 3rd barrel or has a low wtsd%
You said that he can fire unimproved on the turn, but did you have any read on how often he triples?. If you know he never triples then fine, if not then I don't like it.

I don't use software when playing. But you're right I should've put my reads on the original post, I wanted to see what people would say just seeing the hand without knowing about any reads first.

Yeah, I was planning to bluff river, I know the odds were against me that a diamond would hit so I figured a river bluff would work.

I didn't have a clear idea of how often he tripled but when I saw him make double barrels against others who continued to call he tended to slow down and check river. On this flop, I knew him having 2 diamonds was probably not gonna happen often, so i figured a river bluff would work after I got through his aggression.
 
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string

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I don't use software when playing.

That should change. You're playing 25NL, it's only 4 buyins. It'll pay for itself very quickly, and is a great tool all around for making you a better player.
 
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That should change. You're playing 25NL, it's only 4 buyins. It'll pay for itself very quickly, and is a great tool all around for making you a better player.
ignition has anonymous tables so idk how much help it'll be. Also, I don't want it to cripple me once I start playing live and don't have an HUD in front of me.
 
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Does ignition seem sketchy to anyone? The whole anonymous aspect is a little sketchy to me and when I take bad beats at NL5 I always feel like it is rigged... Haha it probably is safe enough though. I want to build a roll on that site and play higher stakes, I only have $25 atm. The SNGs lag out on me for that site so I can only play cash.
 
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Does ignition seem sketchy to anyone? The whole anonymous aspect is a little sketchy to me and when I take bad beats at NL5 I always feel like it is rigged... Haha it probably is safe enough though. I want to build a roll on that site and play higher stakes, I only have $25 atm. The SNGs lag out on me for that site so I can only play cash.

I really appreciate the anonymous tables. I hate the idea of people tracking every single aspect of my play style and following me to every table I play to try to exploit it. Every time I sit down at a table its a fresh experience.

I built a 10$ bonus to 100$ then got ****y and played way higher limits and lost it...then deposited 250$ and built it up to 1000$ before losing that too...have to remember bankroll management.
 
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I really appreciate the anonymous tables. I hate the idea of people tracking every single aspect of my play style and following me to every table I play to try to exploit it. Every time I sit down at a table its a fresh experience.

I built a 10$ bonus to 100$ then got ****y and played way higher limits and lost it...then deposited 250$ and built it up to 1000$ before losing that too...have to remember bankroll management.

I already lost a $25 deposit once. I built to $35 and went all in on the turn JJ vs AK on a board of all undercards the AK called all in and had 12%, A on the river. So I lost that $10 pot and was at $30 rather than $40, a huge difference. I went on tilt and got unlucky a bunch, lost it all and re-deposited. I usually play ACR but I am currently taking a break from gambling. In a month or so I will play again on ignition. It is hard to play 5 buy-ins.
 
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