$10 NLHE 6-max: AA on paired board. Standard line?

I had no HUD for villian at the time for some reason (I think he was sitting out or something)
I timed out but my line for this hand would be flat the raise and probably check/shove the turn if he makes a c-bet. I got the feeling a Q wouldn't have raised so large and also that he thought I was just c-betting a dry flop. Whats your standard thought process here?

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, €0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (€10)
Button (€15.61)
Hero (SB) (€10)
BB (€15.21)
UTG (€24.08)
MP (€18.53)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , A
3 folds, Button bets €0.30, Hero raises to €0.80, 1 fold, Button calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.70) 8 , Q , Q (2 players)
Hero bets €1, Button raises to €3, Hero folds

Total pot: €3.70 | Rake: €0.18

ahhhh fml after going through some HH looks like the guy is a complete donk. Limping with J9o re-raising on J high flop etc. Wish I didn't time out now looks like i'd have got paid off with a lot worse. Lol called down three street bluff with bottom pair. /thread should have jammed
also my HUD decided to work and he's a 53/8. atleast this happens at 10nl and not at high levels

^ haha, well now you know.

My standard line is usually shove or fold here, dont know if im thinking wrong but i just dont like flatting raises here.

acky100 said:

^ haha, well now you know.

My standard line is usually shove or fold here, dont know if im thinking wrong but i just dont like flatting raises here.

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I always shove with overpairs here. Sometimes villain has trips or flopped a set but against a donk, that's a shove for me.

Fold.

People arent great at value betting so you wouldnt expect people to be raising TT here.

There are more Qx type hands in his 3bet call range than draws and peole do not raise 100% of draws especially at these stakes.

So he either has the nuts or air and you need a read showing he raises lots of paired boards before you can put him on a bluff.

RVladimiro said:

I always shove with overpairs here. Sometimes villain has trips or flopped a set but against a donk, that's a shove for me.

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If the flop were something like 799 then sure but there are no over pairs in his flatting range you beat. JJ and TT are not calling a shove on a QQx board.

jbbb said:

I got the feeling a Q wouldn't have raised so large and also that he thought I was just c-betting a dry flop. Whats your standard thought process here?

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You have seen him do this before

jbbb said:

. Limping with J9o re-raising on J high flop etc.

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3bet to 1.20 pf, don't fold flop.

As played he's a lot less committed and in general I think I agree with what Stu's saying - villain has very few pairs that wants to raise/stack, and rarely does it with draws (AKc/JTc maybe). He's not very committed and isn't just going to raise/call it off with 99 or something all that often.

If he's shown any signs of spewiness or 'protection raising' whatsoever though, I'm not folding.

Stu_Ungar said:

If the flop were something like 799 then sure but there are no over pairs in his flatting range you beat. JJ and TT are not calling a shove on a QQx board.

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That's a very good point but how do we get value here, assuming there is any.

I think folding the flop is slightly nitty but not terrible. The fact that he's 53-8 sort of makes me want to fold more. Calling down with bottom pair is different from raising on QQ8.

RVladimiro said:

That's a very good point but how do we get value here, assuming there is any.

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Bet/bet/bet. The fact villain has raised changes things completely. His range is no longer [pairs] that are calling down, but [Qx,maybe strong draws].

Stu_Ungar said:

You have seen him do this before

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Yep good point at the time I didn't know this but this is the kind of information I can start using.

ChuckTs said:

3bet to 1.20 pf, don't fold flop.

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Why 3b to 4x? My standard is 3x but maybe a bit lower on BvB situations to allow them to call a bit wider (although maybe this didnt matter too much against this fish).

As played he's a lot less committed and in general I think I agree with what Stu's saying - villain has very few pairs that wants to raise/stack, and rarely does it with draws (AKc/JTc maybe). He's not very committed and isn't just going to raise/call it off with 99 or something all that often.

If he's shown any signs of spewiness or 'protection raising' whatsoever though, I'm not folding.

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So your line would just be call and then if he double barrels probably find a fold? Or what?

baudib1 said:

I think folding the flop is slightly nitty but not terrible. The fact that he's 53-8 sort of makes me want to fold more. Calling down with bottom pair is different from raising on QQ8.

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ChuckTs said:

Bet/bet/bet. The fact villain has raised changes things completely. His range is no longer [pairs] that are calling down, but [Qx,maybe strong draws].

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So is the consensus folding or calling trying to get to SD cheaply? Or are more reads needed on villian before anything concrete can be said

Its bet bet bet for value but when we are raised we can pretty much shove or fold, i dont think calling and trying to get a cheap showdown is in there at all, because we both know he's just gonna fire on the turn and we're gonna feel like idiots for calling the flop knowing we are gonna fold to a turn bet.

Its obviously all about player types as always and on QQ8ds we need to know if the player could have draws in his range and be playing them like this, so if you have a note that this player doesn't raise draws then KABOOM, when he does raise this flop theres only a few hands he could have and we find it easier to fold. If on the other hand he's the type to shove flush draws and even pairs like 99-JJ (some fish will do this as we cant possibly have a Q when theres two out can we) then we obviously feel better about calling.

Didnt notice the guy was a 53/8, so when passive players raise us they have our pairs beat, gonna have to find the fold button and shrug it off.

Guys... this thread is being discussed by most of the people whose opinions I respect the most, but aren't we giving this villain too much credit?

How different is a 10NL 53/8 from a 2NL 53/8?

Calling the PF 3bet and raising this flop with pocket 22 is more than usual from these guys. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit but what's in his flatting range that beats us? KQ, QJ, QT, not that many combos of AQ and one combo of QQ.

I can't get my mind of him flatting any pocket pair and pulling this raise because "I put him on AK and he missed so I have to protect my A7s". I would expect a 53/8 doing this much more often than actually semi-bluffing unless in 10NL they are less... like 2NL 53/8.

RVladimiro said:

Guys... this thread is being discussed by most of the people whose opinions I respect the most, but aren't we giving this villain too much credit?

How different is a 10NL 53/8 from a 2NL 53/8?

Calling the PF 3bet and raising this flop with pocket 22 is more than usual from these guys. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit but what's in his flatting range that beats us? KQ, QJ, QT, not that many combos of AQ and one combo of QQ.

I can't get my mind of him flatting any pocket pair and pulling this raise because "I put him on AK and he missed so I have to protect my A7s". I would expect a 53/8 doing this much more often than actually semi-bluffing unless in 10NL they are less... like 2NL 53/8.

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The thing about a 53/8 is we usually assume they're more passive because of the times they just call preflop rather than raise. When a passive player raises to 3x he usually has the nuts on this flop (well Qx atleast). If he was 53/32 i'd stack off for sure because he's just such an aggro tard and also hands like KQ,QJs,AQ he'd probably 4bet jam pre.
As Stu said the only time I saw him raise he had TPMK so we don't know he bluff raises atall (unless he's overvaluing AT kind of hand).

acky100 said:

Its bet bet bet for value but when we are raised we can pretty much shove or fold, i dont think calling and trying to get a cheap showdown is in there at all, because we both know he's just gonna fire on the turn and we're gonna feel like idiots for calling the flop knowing we are gonna fold to a turn bet

.....

so when passive players raise us they have our pairs beat, gonna have to find the fold button and shrug it off.

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Makes sense. I'm feeling a lot better about timing out now lol.

jbbb said:

Why 3b to 4x? My standard is 3x but maybe a bit lower on BvB situations to allow them to call a bit wider (although maybe this didnt matter too much against this fish).

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Because we're OOP, and because we're up against a fish. We want a big pot. People call wider BSB anyway - they're not going to suddenly call with like %90 of their opening range because you made it just under 3x. There's a balance with respect to how often something gets called and the sizing - typically this balance just means making it BIG vs fish when you're going for value.

jbbb said:

So your line would just be call and then if he double barrels probably find a fold? Or what?

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If he's shown spewiness/raises for protection? Well typically that means value betting/raising lighter, so what would you do if you thought he had TT here?

jbbb said:

So is the consensus folding or calling trying to get to SD cheaply? Or are more reads needed on villian before anything concrete can be said

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Villain is raising the flop in a 3bet pot. You're not getting to sd cheaply unless he completely shuts down with 99 after a protection raise and decides not to vbet any turn/rivers.

We have to make our decision now - that either means stacking flop, or calling flop and crai turn.

RVladimiro said:

Guys... this thread is being discussed by most of the people whose opinions I respect the most, but aren't we giving this villain too much credit?

How different is a 10NL 53/8 from a 2NL 53/8?

Calling the PF 3bet and raising this flop with pocket 22 is more than usual from these guys. Maybe I'm not giving him enough credit but what's in his flatting range that beats us? KQ, QJ, QT, not that many combos of AQ and one combo of QQ.

I can't get my mind of him flatting any pocket pair and pulling this raise because "I put him on AK and he missed so I have to protect my A7s". I would expect a 53/8 doing this much more often than actually semi-bluffing unless in 10NL they are less... like 2NL 53/8.

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It's not about giving him 'credit', it's about my typical blanket read that loose-passives don't value bet/value raise thinly, and they don't semibluff or pure bluff very often. I do see your point about protection raises though.

But if that's your read, and you would certainly know 2nl-10nl better than me, then absolutely getting it in is fine. I would be pretty surprised if they raised 22 on the regular here though.