$10 NLHE 6-max: A high flush draw+straight draw vs overvetshove by shortie. right price to call?

loafes

loafes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Total posts
1,049
Chips
0
$10 NLHE 6-max: A high flush draw+straight draw vs overvetshove by shortie. right price to call?

Purely a maths spot, am I able to call here given that he's a short fish, playing on his tablet so probably going to show up with pretty weak hands generally here.



Seat 1: Btn ($10.98 in chips)
Seat 2: SB ($4.91 in chips)
Seat 3: BB ($22.44 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($9.95 in chips)
Seat 5: HERO (MP) ($10 in chips)
Seat 6: CO ($10.75 in chips)

SB posts small blind $0.05
BB posts big blind $0.10

PreFlop: Dealt to HERO [A
club.gif
4
club.gif
]
UTG raises to $0.30, HERO calls $0.30, 2 folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

*** FLOP *** J
club.gif
K
heart.gif
T
club.gif
(Pot=$1)
SB bets $4.61(AI), UTG folds,
 
dealio96

dealio96

The LAG Monkeys
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Total posts
7,960
Awards
5
Chips
0
Looks as though you'll win here 42% of the time if you're up against kj,k10,j10 and the way the action played out, those hands are in his range...ask yourself..do you wanna give a fish that much of an edge to win a pot that you have 30 cents invested in? Guess it depends on how you're feeling that day:) Myself personally, tend to stay away from flip scenarios with fish bc I feel my game is too advanced to give fish a 50% chance of winning:D
As far as pot odds, you already know you're not getting the right price;) Did you call??
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
You've got 12 outs to either the straight or flush, 44.96% chance of finding one of them on the next two streets.

Pot is $5.61, $4.61 to call... someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the EV on a call is about -1c? I'm at work and doing this by hand :p

That's assuming all your outs are good (ie: you wouldn't end up splitting on a straight if villain also has Ax) and that villain doesn't have any redraws to a boat (though shoving a set here seems unlikely). If either of those are true your EV goes down. Doesn't take into account what you'd lose on rake either.

That's assuming you're behind though. If an ace is a live out for you (say if he's shoving 99) then it becomes an easier call. And if you're somehow already ahead, obviously your EV goes up a ton.

I think the thing to take into consideration here is if villain is bad enough that his range makes this a marginally +EV call, then you'll almost certainly find loads of other better, lower risk spots in which to take his money.
 
dealio96

dealio96

The LAG Monkeys
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Total posts
7,960
Awards
5
Chips
0
This is his entire range?

Did I say this was his ENTIRE range?? Obv kq,qj,q10,TT and maybe JJ are also possible... but yea... I don't see any1 open jamming that flop with anything less and not reraising pre with anything more.:tomato:
 
Last edited:
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
I hate to be that guy but,

fold pre
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
I hate to be that guy but,

fold pre

I agree with that guy. You are calling the UTG raiser with a hand that is likely to be dominated on the flop. So you are essentially hoping to hit a flush draw or a 4?

I think this is a poor call preflop. Even fish are likely to raise a tighter range UTG than they are in other spots. So you are playing against the portion of his range that is the most likely to hold the most number of A's. You have an A. Your hand is going to be killed post flop more than it is going to kill.

Fold pre, and save yourself the money.
 
JPoling

JPoling

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2014
Total posts
756
Chips
0
AQ or 9Q is what he has. Possibly K10 J10 or KJ is my guess. I'm feeling he has AQ though. Possible set though. JJ or 1010. Im still gonna go with AQ though is my guess.
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
Even fish are likely to raise a tighter range UTG than they are in other spots.

This is wrong. Fish are not positionally aware. They will play any garbage no matter what position. They don't understand the importance of it.

We hold a suited ace with the ability to make a straight. UTG is 100BB deep.

Depends on villain but fold this pre just because were scared of UTG holding Ax in 6max is way too snug for my liking.

What are we stacking people off with if we don't gamble a little?
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
This is wrong. Fish are not positionally aware. They will play any garbage no matter what position. They don't understand the importance of it.

We hold a suited ace with the ability to make a straight. UTG is 100BB deep.

Depends on villain but fold this pre just because were scared of UTG holding Ax in 6max is way too snug for my liking.

What are we stacking people off with if we don't gamble a little?

I disagree on almost every point.

Fish are somewhat aware of position. Even bad players recognize that a little.

We hold a weak ace that is not likely to make a straight or a flush often, and is more likely to cause trouble than it is to not.

We could also fold pre because UTG could be playing a lot of other cards that run pretty well in equity against us, like JT, or K9. Since we only have 1 real shot at a winning pair, it sucks. It's not too snug, it is playing smart poker so that we don't throw money away with crappy hands against a short stack who is likely to be playing a tight range. Short stack players do that.

We don't need to "gamble" with suboptimal holdings when we can get it in against this shortstack somewhere else. Why risk it here? It will be easy to get this guy to commit his stack anyway, we don't need to gamble with him, since short stacks tend to have the gambling edge since they get to pick when they hit the gas.

You can play in anyway that you so choose, but gambling it up and playing loose is not going to be beneficial in most games. You just don't need to.

You can play a pretty profitable 21/19 style in 6max and never break a sweat. You can also play a winning 27/24 style, but most people playing at the micro's shouldn't, because they are awful.
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
You say players at micros are awful? Yet everyone, including fish are positonally aware and will tighten up their range UTG?

Im not saying GII at all, all im talking about is the decision to fold pre.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Yes, someone can be both positionally aware and bad at poker.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

There are a lot of ways to be bad, and most people who play online poker are at the very least aware of position and the idea that you should play a little tighter earlier rather than later.

Folding pre is fine. I don't mind open raising this hand, I don't even hate a 3bet with this hand. I think calling is terrible.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
We hold a suited ace with the ability to make a straight. UTG is 100BB deep.

Depends on villain but fold this pre just because were scared of UTG holding Ax in 6max is way too snug for my liking.

bahahaha, wow
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
Yes, someone can be both positionally aware and bad at poker.

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

There are a lot of ways to be bad, and most people who play online poker are at the very least aware of position and the idea that you should play a little tighter earlier rather than later.

Folding pre is fine. I don't mind open raising this hand, I don't even hate a 3bet with this hand. I think calling is terrible.

Agree to disagree then. At 10nl I can't see raising or calling being a massive error at 10nl against a bad player. Villain dependent like almost everything is.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Agree to disagree then. At 10nl I can't see raising or calling being a massive error at 10nl against a bad player. Villain dependent like almost everything is.

The only villain this makes sense for is a maniac.

You only have so many possible edges in poker.
(1) skill
(2) position
(3) card

When someone is short stacked they are removing some of the potential advantages of position, because the more money is in the pot in relation to your stack sizes the less position relatively matters. So after preflop you lose your positional advantage.

You don't really have a card edge here because you are playing a pretty trashy hand. He is very likely to be playing a better (read more equity) hand in this situation. So you don't have a card edge.

The only edge you are claiming to have in this situation, is the skill edge. Well, that is actually hampered a little by a short stack player too. Since they only have 1 or 2 post flop decisions to make you can't really abuse your skill edge as much either.


In this situation the best thing you can do - given that positional edges and skill edges are being blunted by the short stack player - is to play up the one edge that you still have. Card edge.

I think it goes like this, from best to worst decisions you can make in this hand. Fold > Raise > Call. Calling is literally the worst thing you can do in this situation against a non-maniac unknown shortstack player.

There is no real villain dependency here.

Without a sick read, this is a hand that should be folded to a raise preflop.

If you don't get that, you need to consider what you are calling with. You're going to have problems winning long term.
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
The only villain this makes sense for is a maniac.

You only have so many possible edges in poker.
(1) skill
(2) position
(3) card

When someone is short stacked they are removing some of the potential advantages of position, because the more money is in the pot in relation to your stack sizes the less position relatively matters. So after preflop you lose your positional advantage.

You don't really have a card edge here because you are playing a pretty trashy hand. He is very likely to be playing a better (read more equity) hand in this situation. So you don't have a card edge.

The only edge you are claiming to have in this situation, is the skill edge. Well, that is actually hampered a little by a short stack player too. Since they only have 1 or 2 post flop decisions to make you can't really abuse your skill edge as much either.


In this situation the best thing you can do - given that positional edges and skill edges are being blunted by the short stack player - is to play up the one edge that you still have. Card edge.

I think it goes like this, from best to worst decisions you can make in this hand. Fold > Raise > Call. Calling is literally the worst thing you can do in this situation against a non-maniac unknown shortstack player.

There is no real villain dependency here.

Without a sick read, this is a hand that should be folded to a raise preflop.

If you don't get that, you need to consider what you are calling with. You're going to have problems winning long term.

Dude UTG isn't shortstacked!t
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Dude UTG isn't shortstacked!t

Sorry mixed my villains. OP said villain he was a short fish.

Doesn't really change my argument I guess. If the short fish is the SB, and the non fish is the UTG raiser, then all the more reason to fold. For all we know the UTG raiser is a TAG player who has a solid range.

Or raise, wouldn't it be nice to iso that fish instead of playing a trash hand multi-way.

My poor reading comprehension doesn't change this into a good call, it actually supports a fold.
 
loafes

loafes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Total posts
1,049
Chips
0
For what its worth, pre is totally new for me. Previously I'd only ever open this hand or 3 bet if they're opening from mp-lp. However I've been reading some stuff about players crushing 10 nl with wideish calling ranges and I realised that I'm virtually never flatting hands except when set mining. I wanted to expierement with flatting more often, especially since I think a lot of 10nl players don't know what they're doing post flop so have trouble playing against a wide range I.e when facing a flat.

I also thought we actually wanted this hand to go multi way which is part of the reason for the flat, don't small suited aces play well multi way as a flat? Is this only if we're deep stacked then? I'm mainly looking to hit aces up, trips or a big draw/made hand.

Guess it's good that pre was picked up on since its getting me thinking about a spot I didn't realise was horrible.


Postflop is why I posted though. I think given that sb is a rec player, he may well show up with 1 pair hands like K9, J9, 109, Q8s plus like maybe an occasional 67-78-89 cc ect which is why it might be profitable, I wasn't sure though which is why I posted. I should also mention that this was actually zoom so unlike reg tables I'm not necessarily going to be able to play a lot of hands with villain. Also I think there might be value in winning the pot since if we win then we now have 150bb stack instead of 100 and can now possible win a bugger pot later. In the end I called because I figured its going to be close either way and it can't really be a huge mistake to call with so many outs. Villain had J9

The thing is, despite this I actually think I should fold these spots since I didn't think about rake or the times we chop.
 
BearPlay

BearPlay

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Total posts
10,631
Chips
0
I'm also more of a casual hyper player but the topic seriously intrigues me and I plan to do more.

I've been railing JB when I can, and he's a beast ;)

I appreciate the contributions here from those of you more experienced in this venue.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
For what its worth im folding pre here without even thinking about it, especially in zoom. If I knew something about the villain tendancies you can vary your play as the situation offers but in zoom if we know little then chances are you are dominated. To make money you need to make a flush and people are less willing to pay off with three of a suit showing. In the long run calling here is almost certainly neg EV.
As regards the flop overbet 1st to act. If you have a hand why not bet normally or look to check raise.
 
Full Flush Poker
Top