$10 NLHE 6-max: 3bet Jam turn or call & play the river?

Alucard

Alucard

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pokerstars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 108.7 BB (VPIP: 8.70, PFR: 7.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 71)
SB: 102.3 BB (VPIP: 25.19, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 10.42, Hands: 139)
BB: 28.1 BB (VPIP: 31.17, PFR: 20.78, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 77)
UTG: 101 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
Hero (MP): 224.1 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 9.68, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 64)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Ac
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop : (7 BB, 2 players) Td Ks Kh
SB checks, Hero bets 3 BB, SB calls 3 BB

Turn : (13 BB, 2 players) 2h
SB checks, Hero bets 16 BB, SB raises to 32 BB, Hero calls 16 BB

River : (77 BB, 2 players) 7h
SB bets 64.3 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 64.3 BB

a bit of an egotistical player. Have been trying to go vs me
Fold to 3bet - 58%
No prev raise/check raise stats

liking my overbet on the turn. With the check min raise I'm putting him on mostly Kx es or a ton of bluffs. Not sure a draw would do this. 3bet jam with some draws or play some rivers as I did?One one side I fold all the bluffs but on the other side there could be scary rivers like this one
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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This is an interesting hand. Don't show the results on the river.

I think I play it as you did. I doubt he floated naked hearts OOP. So his draws are mostly QJ type stuff. Nice hand.

Or, click back the turn for lulz.
 
mbrenneman0

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the check raise sizing on the turn makes it look like he's doing it for value to set up the river jam. if he was check raising hearts as a semi bluff i think he would size it up if he's competent enough to check raise the heart draw he should be competent enough to size a bluff properly right?

the ego read seems irrelevant. it may be true, but unless you have specifics to go a long with it, like check raising too often or opening wide, it makes it sound like youre just trying to justify the call OTR with flimsy logic.

I think he's going to show up with TT, 22, Kx and AT and maybe JJ. id give a low weight to the AT and JJ though. so because theres only really 6 combos that beat you, i would call here and theres probably at least 6 combos of worse Kx in his range, i think this is an easy call. if he has the boat, then GGNH

i think flatting the turn is fine, cause if you jam for protection, what are you really accomplishing? you just get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. Ed Miller calls this a "negative freeroll"
 
Gohaku94

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PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 108.7 BB (VPIP: 8.70, PFR: 7.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 71)
SB: 102.3 BB (VPIP: 25.19, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 10.42, Hands: 139)
BB: 28.1 BB (VPIP: 31.17, PFR: 20.78, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 77)
UTG: 101 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
Hero (MP): 224.1 BB
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 19.35, PFR: 9.68, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 64)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Ac
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop : (7 BB, 2 players) Td Ks Kh
SB checks, Hero bets 3 BB, SB calls 3 BB

Turn : (13 BB, 2 players) 2h
SB checks, Hero bets 16 BB, SB raises to 32 BB, Hero calls 16 BB

River : (77 BB, 2 players) 7h
SB bets 64.3 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 64.3 BB

a bit of an egotistical player. Have been trying to go vs me
Fold to 3bet - 58%
No prev raise/check raise stats

liking my overbet on the turn. With the check min raise I'm putting him on mostly Kx es or a ton of bluffs. Not sure a draw would do this. 3bet jam with some draws or play some rivers as I did?One one side I fold all the bluffs but on the other side there could be scary rivers like this one
I would bet bigger on the flop it would change alot about this hand. 3 into 7 is kind of low, id fo for like 4.5 so that turn overbet becomes just a pot size bet. I do not like the overbet i think you make even QQ fold which is the best non K hand but he probably would 3bet it pre anyway so he either has stuff that he folds to an overbet or he has stuff that he will raise anyway and you get the money in.
I eould just shove turn after his bet. You never fold on river anyway.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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I would bet bigger on the flop it would change alot about this hand. 3 into 7 is kind of low, id fo for like 4.5 so that turn overbet becomes just a pot size bet. I do not like the overbet i think you make even QQ fold which is the best non K hand but he probably would 3bet it pre anyway so he either has stuff that he folds to an overbet or he has stuff that he will raise anyway and you get the money in.
I eould just shove turn after his bet. You never fold on river anyway.
that reminds me, i dont like the overbet on the turn already, and i dont like betting bigger on the flop. why are we overbetting the turn? or as gohaku suggests why are we putting in a pot size bet on the turn?
 
Alucard

Alucard

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How are you guys even putting TT+ in his range? Highly improbable.
We literally have the nuts on the turn. No TT+. Highly unlikely 22. No KTs.

Betting bigger on flop on paired boards doesn't make much sense to me.
We are overbetting turn because we have a significant range advantage & we want to put maximum pressure on him.
Weaker Kxes - Getting max value. As well as letting him add some semi+pure bluffs.
At the same time we are opening to play a much bigger pot.

What are the hands that'd cold call from SB vs MP, check call flop & check call turn on that board if we bet under pot?
And also I know he likes to play back vs me so I like it even more.
 
mbrenneman0

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how does he not have TT or 22 in his range? maybe he 3bets TT pre, but not always, especially if he polarizes his 3b range. do you think he would donk bet or checkraise the flopped boat? I wouldnt if I were him.

hands that call a regular sized turn bet but fold to an overbet: Tx, 7x and medium pocket pairs and any flush draws that he doesnt check raise.

im not convinced that he's egotistically "playing back at you" you only have 140 hands on him, and his stats look solid, slightly laggy. its possible, from my perspective, that you got in a spot with him earlier and took it personally and now youre trying to get into a metagame leveling war, this leveling game is just irrelevant in the spot, jjust play a solid game, and if he wants to get in a leveling war with you, let him level himself.
 
Alucard

Alucard

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this is so bs.who said I'm levelling here?
Flatting 22+ from SB vs MP & calling down twice vs MP is quite unprofitable unless you have a decent read. And 7x??
I see no reason not use an ob on turn with some strat content telling me to do so. (Upswing,RIO)
While we might fold out some Tx es We are targeting the top of his range cause most combos are folding to a decent size bet on turn or giving them a decent price on draws.
By OBing turn we are heavily polarising ourselves and putting him on a tough spot with his value range (3street value hands) +draws.
I'm not saying it might be the most correct play here but how can anyone say it is not?
 
mbrenneman0

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im not saying your leveling, but that piece of information about him "playing back at you" is irrelevant, and trying to use that information could get yourself leveled.

whats your whole overbetting range on the turn?
I know sites like upswing advocate having an overbetting range, but unless youre balancing it properly, it can be damaging to your overall strategy, possibly losing money on your ~2/3pot betting range if theres not enough strong hands in that range

id be very interested in seeing a 3rd opinion from a trusted member
 
Figaroo2

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I would normally flat 22-TT in the SB here along with some suited Broadway's like JT QJ KQ. Others might call with ATs KJs KTs, id three 3bet those.
I would though dump the 22 on the flop. I might call once with 77 as you made it so small. Maybe some 22 sticks around to see more evidence. You have a lot of whiffed aces in your range here.
So my range to call flop is JTs QJs KQs 66-TT. To raise the turn it would have to be KhQh TT. I'm folding 77 to the overbet. There's no way in he'll I'm minraising a pure draw as I lose my pot odds if you shove. I'm then of course shoving the river for value with TT, KhQh.
I think as played you just have to hope he's overplaying KQ, some other players might also get there with KJ KT but I expect to see TT KT KQ KJ here the most.
 
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