$10 NLHE 6-max: 2nd barrel on RF draw

youregoodmate

youregoodmate

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PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: $15.25
UTG: $13.64
BTN: $10.05
Hero (SB): $10.00

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has K:heart: A:heart:

fold, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, BTN calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10, 2 players) 4:spade: T:heart: 2:club:
Hero bets $1.30, BTN calls $1.30

Turn: ($4.70, 2 players) Q:heart:
Hero bets $2.80, BTN raises to $7.75 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.90 and is all-in
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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stats?

I like c/j on turn imo, it lets him put money in with floats etc and we're putting the pressure on instead of having to call off.

stats?
 
youregoodmate

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Dont have stats on him unfortunately, he appeared for like 3 hands then ran.

Yeah I like c/j, gives us FE.
 
c9h13no3

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Wtf, you realize we have more FE with a barrel than a x/shove right?
 
acky100

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I think you should bet flop smaller, $0.70- half pot
 
acky100

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i probably just bet the turn again rather than x/jam but i dont like the way stacks are set up. Wondering if we could make an exploitable play of betting the turn small, so when we are called we can jam all rivers expecting his range to be weaker and fold a lot on the river. But yeh i prefer betting smaller and being concious otf and turn so im not left with a crappy half pot bet on rivers when i brick

edit: fwiw i dont think x/jamming would ever be -EV here.
 
duggs

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c/j if he cant hand read,
if he can i prefer bet/bet/shove. and use whatever sizing required to have a nice PSB on river
 
c9h13no3

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explanation and assumptions please?
If your opponent bets his hand range gets stronger. Raising always gets more folds than a 3 bet, a flop bet always gets more folds than a turn bet. Your fold equity always decreases the more money your opponent is willing to put into the game.

Check/calling might actually be my preferred line over check/raising.
 
duggs

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If your opponent bets his hand range gets stronger. Raising always gets more folds than a 3 bet, a flop bet always gets more folds than a turn bet. Your fold equity always decreases the more money your opponent is willing to put into the game.

Check/calling might actually be my preferred line over check/raising.

no it doesnt, that assumes he doesnt have a bluff or thin value range, as someone bets their range becomes more polarised. which is great for us as his air bet/folds and his value hands can never has us crushed.

fold equity doesnt decrease according to street, thats a massive generalization.
 
youregoodmate

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Yes if he bets his hand range gets stronger, but when we jam ours gets very much stronger. I think we get more folds plus value from x/j.
 
acky100

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I dont think you can go wrong check jamming here, but i don't think its a high fold equity play at all because of stack depth, that and you then rep AK and draws nicely so them two reasons are why i think fold equity is less with a check jam
 
duggs

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I dont think you can go wrong check jamming here, but i don't think its a high fold equity play at all because of stack depth, that and you then rep AK and draws nicely so them two reasons are why i think fold equity is less with a check jam

yea if he can hand read then yea its quite face up
 
c9h13no3

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no it doesnt, that assumes he doesnt have a bluff or thin value range, as someone bets their range becomes more polarised. which is great for us as his air bet/folds and his value hands can never has us crushed.

fold equity doesnt decrease according to street, thats a massive generalization.
And a massive generalization that's accurate. But lets get specific.

If we check, villain has the option to check back. If his range is floats (lets say AJo), medium strength hands (like 99), and big hands (QQ, AQ), he will check back his 99type hands a non zero percentage of the time. And those are precisely the hands we are targeting by betting. We want them to fold. By checking, we allow them to keep the pot smaller and get to showdown. And we don't get an opportunity to fold out those weak hands with showdown value. Thus, our fold equity decreases. Even if we check jam, we're not likely to increase our FE enough to make up for this.

You are not checking this turn to get more folds, you check to extract value from bluffs. If we bet, AJ prolly has to give up. But by checking, we allow his bluffs to put more $ in.

This all seems blatantly obvious to me. But my thinking isn't clouded by OMG RANGE MERGE POLARIZE gobbledy gook. This is a simple spot. Its troubling to me that your thinking is so far off. That's really the only time I reply to threads anymore, when something is so obvious that it doesn't matter that I've been out of poker for more than a year.
 
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SofaKingCrazy

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Maybe I'm not as aggressive as the others here and maybe that's due to the amount of suckouts I've seen the last few months but I find this play to be bad.

You've risked your entire stack on a draw. Given any J will due and any heart will do as well it is still a draw and I feel (with the lack of stats and description of play) that this player has you crushed here. Either set or most likely two pair on flop. This would be evident by how quickly he re-fired at you.

I think the pot got out of control here and over the long run this play is -EV.

:evil:
 
youregoodmate

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Maybe I'm not as aggressive as the others here and maybe that's due to the amount of suckouts I've seen the last few months but I find this play to be bad.

You've risked your entire stack on a draw. Given any J will due and any heart will do as well it is still a draw and I feel (with the lack of stats and description of play) that this player has you crushed here. Either set or most likely two pair on flop. This would be evident by how quickly he re-fired at you.

I think the pot got out of control here and over the long run this play is -EV.

:evil:

Well no... just no. Haha what kind of funky two pair does he have on the flop? Calling the flop his range is very wide, we are never c/fing the turn here with this combo draw, especially seeing as the Q is often a good card for barreling.

The money was going in anyway, I was just asking how we got it in to create the most FE.
 
acky100

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Id rather shove the turn than x/shove here and think it'd actually be pretty good, but yeh in future, try and size your bets better as you can see, its a bit awkward here
 
youregoodmate

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Id rather shove the turn than x/shove here and think it'd actually be pretty good, but yeh in future, try and size your bets better as you can see, its a bit awkward here

As in bet less? Or more otf so I can ship the turn?
 
acky100

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Less OTF imo, 0.70-half pot tops. We want to put as much of villains range in the toughest spot as possible whilst sizing up to get stacks in without only having like a half pot bet on the river.
 
youregoodmate

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Will that not just look really weak. If I was the villain Id raise that with most air and top pair hands.
 
acky100

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Well like i said it puts most of his range in a bad spot, if he wants to start spazzing out raising with most of his range (that misses this flop) I'm cool with that
 
duggs

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If your opponent bets his hand range gets stronger. Raising always gets more folds than a 3 bet, a flop bet always gets more folds than a turn bet. Your fold equity always decreases the more money your opponent is willing to put into the game.

Check/calling might actually be my preferred line over check/raising.

raising only gets more folds than a 3bet if the difference between they folding and flatting/3betting range is larger than the difference between their raising and 3bet calling/4betting, which is not always the case.

a flop cbet doesnt always get more folds that a turn cbet, expecially if they are floaty.

your fold equity depends of the difference between their current range and their calling/raising range.

and this is why i disagree.
 
duggs

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And a massive generalization that's accurate. But lets get specific.

If we check, villain has the option to check back. If his range is floats (lets say AJo), medium strength hands (like 99), and big hands (QQ, AQ), he will check back his 99type hands a non zero percentage of the time. And those are precisely the hands we are targeting by betting. We want them to fold. By checking, we allow them to keep the pot smaller and get to showdown. And we don't get an opportunity to fold out those weak hands with showdown value. Thus, our fold equity decreases. Even if we check jam, we're not likely to increase our FE enough to make up for this.

You are not checking this turn to get more folds, you check to extract value from bluffs. If we bet, AJ prolly has to give up. But by checking, we allow his bluffs to put more $ in.

This all seems blatantly obvious to me. But my thinking isn't clouded by OMG RANGE MERGE POLARIZE gobbledy gook. This is a simple spot. Its troubling to me that your thinking is so far off. That's really the only time I reply to threads anymore, when something is so obvious that it doesn't matter that I've been out of poker for more than a year.

now onto this example,
99 is a pretty poor example since we can bet/c/bet it off the hand pretty much every time, and its borderline bad enough that he might even turn it into a bluff on the turn. if he is more likely to jam bluffs on us on the turn and to bet all his air when checked to, and he will be bet/folding hands like QJ QK

hands like 22-88 will be very unlikely to try get to showdown and will either be folding to any bet or turning themselves into a bluff.

obviously c/j is to extract value from his floats/bluffs/thin value range/i haz J10 i bet range. also assuming his checking back range is going to fold to a turn bet is a big assumption.

side note: i love how you refer to lingo as crap, but you still use phrases like cbet
 
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